Just Say No To Ramp Check?

[danb35]

No need to be rude or impolite, but you are not required to allow entry into an aircraft, to provide charts, logs, w&b, or anything other than your certificate, medical, and the airworthiness cert. if requested.

(emphasis added).  This isn't quite correct.  You're required to provide both pilot and aircraft logs to the FAA on "reasonable request".  If they ask for them during a ramp check, and you do have them on board, you must provide them (lying and saying you don't have them is a felony, as you know, under 18 USC 1001).  You are not required to have them on board, though, and they can't detain or otherwise punish you for not having them.  They can, however, require you to present the logs at some point in the future.

[Z W]

This is a very complicated issue, legally speaking.  

 

The 4th amendment protects you even in your private part 91 aircraft.  You need not identify yourself, produce anything, or speak to any law enforcement officer, and any officer needs reasonable suspicion to detain you, and probable cause to search you and your aircraft.  This is all in the context of a criminal prosecution, the classic example being trafficking drugs.  If you refuse to cooperate, refuse to speak to anyone, and request an attorney, law enforcement generally cannot detain you or search your aircraft, without at least reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime or infraction.

 

The 4th amendment does not, however, apply in a disciplinary action by the FAA to suspend your airman certificate, which is a civil action.  The FAA can take your license for refusing to comply with 14 CFR 61.3(l), for example, which requires you to produce your airman certificate and a photo ID "upon request" to a the FAA, any law enforcement officer, and any member of the NTSB or TSA.  The FAA can take your license for violating any applicable regulation it so chooses, and as long as its decisions are not arbitrary or capricious, the courts will generally uphold it.  As some have said, the courts view your airman certificate as a privilege, not a constitutional right, so it can be taken from you more easily, without constitutional safeguards.

 

We see this all the time in driving while intoxicated cases.  Even if the defendant beats the criminal charge and avoids any jail time or fines, the government can still take his or her driving privileges away, and does.

 

I am an attorney, but this post is not legal advice for any specific situation, and reading it does not create an attorney-client relationship (sorry, the Bar makes us put these disclaimers in things).  I suggest if you are contacted by anyone from the government wanting to talk to you about your airplane, you immediately call an aviation attorney to walk you through your specific situation.  If you PM me, I will send you my cell phone number, and take your call free of charge if it's ever needed.

[jetdriven]

(emphasis added).  This isn't quite correct.  You're required to provide both pilot and aircraft logs to the FAA on "reasonable request".  If they ask for them during a ramp check, and you do have them on board, you must provide them (lying and saying you don't have them is a felony, as you know, under 18 USC 1001).  You are not required to have them on board, though, and they can't detain or otherwise punish you for not having them.  They can, however, require you to present the logs at some point in the future.

There is no requirement for pilot logs or aircraft logbooks either.  All you are required to produce is required landings for currency to carry passengers, IPC, BFR etc.   Regarding aircraft maintenance records, all you need is the last 1 year's entries and any 337s, and weight and balance data. Anything else legally is not required to be kept, and so, you didnt keep it.   It can be on a sheet of notebook paper.

[John Pleisse]

There is no requirement for pilot logs or aircraft logbooks either. 

 

Yes they can. Not at first encounter, but upon subsequent request. Dan is right.

[jetdriven]

There is no requirement to even keep an aircraft or pilot logbook, beyond what i mentioned. How do you refuse to present something that does not exist?

[John Pleisse]

You are mincing FAR's and what an FAA inspector can request.  The same holds true for downed aircraft and casualty.

Use the FAR's to defend yourself if they follow-up.  I'd pay all the tea in China to see what that would get you.  Not going to argue semantics with you.

[RJBrown]

There is no requirement for pilot logs or aircraft logbooks either.  All you are required to produce is required landings for currency to carry passengers, IPC, BFR etc.   Regarding aircraft maintenance records, all you need is the last 1 year's entries and any 337s, and weight and balance data. Anything else legally is not required to be kept, and so, you didnt keep it.   It can be on a sheet of notebook paper.

 

 

Yes they can. Not at first encounter, but upon subsequent request. Dan is right.

Byron is correct.

Dan was wrong. He stated that they could demand them right then and there.

A reasonable request involves supplying them to the FAA at a later date. This allows you time to review and correct/update any needed information. The proper answer could be "I will allow you access to those files through my lawyer, you can contact him at *&^%$#"

[jetdriven]

It's not semanitcs, its the FAR's I am quoting. 

 

You are not required to keep records beyond that which is required as below. Further, once you recieve a certificate or rating, the times documented on the FAA form 8710 become legally verified and those satisfy the requirments of training and aeronautical experience for the certificate or rating.

 

Anything else you give them is not required, and is additional information they can use in an enforcement proceeding.

 

Know your rights, know the FAR's.

 

 

Pilot logbooks:

Sec. 61.51 — Pilot logbooks.
  (a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
  (1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

 

 

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

-------

i) Presentation of required documents.

(1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by—

(i) The Administrator;

(ii) An authorized representative from the National Transportation Safety Board; or

(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.

 

 

aircraft maintenance records:

Sec. 91.417 — Maintenance records.

(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph ( of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include......

 

(2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by §43.9(a) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.

( The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under §43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.

© The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition, the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of any law enforcement officer.

 

 

And yes, a "reasonable request" is within 60 days of the request, at the office of your lawyer.  Been there.

[WardHolbrook]

Byron is spot on. You need to know and understand your rights. There's one other aspect to all of this - If they end up inspecting your airplane you also need to understand that indeed they can disassemble your airplane to any degree they feel necessary and then simply walk away leaving you to deal with the results including the costs of reassembling the mess and repairing any damage. Keep that in mind when you're standing out on the ramp and a couple of non-pilot DHS types are trying to decide if they're going to have to open up your airplane or not. 

[danb35]

Byron is correct.

Dan was wrong. He stated that they could demand them right then and there.

A reasonable request involves supplying them to the FAA at a later date. This allows you time to review and correct/update any needed information. The proper answer could be "I will allow you access to those files through my lawyer, you can contact him at *&^%$#"

Well, yes, they can demand (or, perhaps, "request") them at the time of the ramp check--and if you do have them, good luck arguing that presenting them immediately is not reasonable.  However, you're not required to carry them with you, and obviously you can't produce them immediately if you don't have them with you.

 

To Byron's point, it's definitely true that only certain records need to be kept, both for the pilot and the aircraft.  If, in fact, you only keep the minimum required records, those are all you can produce when they ask for them.  If, however, you're like most of us and keep detailed maintenance records, are you going to go back to the inspector and say "this is all I'm required to keep, so this is all I'm going to produce"?

[jetdriven]

Does the inspector know if you have detailed records or just the FAR required ones?

[WardHolbrook]

If they subpoena your records the wording will probably read along the lines of "any and all". 

[jetdriven]

If they wish to go that far, sure. But, depending on the circumstances, they are going to have to issue a subpoena to get them in an enforcement hearing. Until then, they get the required documents, and my lawyer will handle it.  Why give them more information that may weaken your case?

 

http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/181881-1.html?redirected=1

[flyboy0681]

This just in..

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/aopa-toughens-stance-aircraft-searches?cmpid=enews091013&spPodID=030&spMailingID=17883043&spUserID=NjMwODgyNDQxNDIS1&spJobID=228193256&spReportId=MjI4MTkzMjU2S0

 

 

 

[N33GG]

As some have said, the courts view your airman certificate as a privilege, not a constitutional right, so it can be taken from you more easily, without constitutional safeguards.

 

During a recent FIRC, we were told that it has been determined that flying is a right, and not a privilege. If true, how would this change your position, if at all?

I appreciate you sharing your legal expertise on this matter. Thank you.

[John Pleisse]

Go ahead....take on the FAA. Byron, at first crack, you asked Don Muncy's opinion. Go back and read it. I am of good means and defiant of the government. I wouldn't pay an attorney to argue against the FAA. Rights? Go ahead assert your rights. You'll win a battle, maybe a half, but lose the war. Given your inflexibility with spending, I am certain you wouldn't mind a quick $20k to quash a subpoena. A lot different than spouting off on MS. And here we are. Another nano discussion that averts total common sense. Semantics.

[jetdriven]

You must have a real hard-on for me or something, John.  But I wont take the bait this time.

 

I am in complete agreement with Don Muncy's advice, in fact I prompted him to respond.  I will comply fully with any ramp inspection, I have been subjected to 8 or 10 so far. All went well.

 

Where I draw the line is fishing expeditions and paper trails of pilot and aircraft records. They are going to have to earn those. And to back that up, not just bullshit as you claim, I went through an enforcement investigation in which they demanded my pilot logs. (Student I had signed off had a violaton). They were referred to my lawyer, who referred them  to my latest FAA Form 8710 application, and they accepted that.

 

Then I won the violation investigation.  Had I "mailed in my logbooks" and went down to the FDSO to have a fireside chat and "explain my side of the story" I can guarantee you I would have not.

 

Best 3 grand I ever spent.

[Z W]

As some have said, the courts view your airman certificate as a privilege, not a constitutional right, so it can be taken from you more easily, without constitutional safeguards.

 

During a recent FIRC, we were told that it has been determined that flying is a right, and not a privilege. If true, how would this change your position, if at all?

I appreciate you sharing your legal expertise on this matter. Thank you.

 

I'm not sure what FIRC means, but I would like to read whatever court decision, statute, or regulation you are referring to.  The only major legislation I'm aware of to recently pass is the Pilot's Bill of Rights, which is not nearly as powerful as the name suggests  (http://www.faa.gov/pilots/rights/).  It certainly does not give us a "right" to fly.  It mostly gives pilots a right to get copies of the FAA's evidence against them before their hearing on revoking their license.

[N33GG]

I don't have a specific court decision, statute, or regulation. But the person that told me has a legal background in aviation law for many decades. Sorry, I wish I did know the source of his statement, but I do not. Next time I see him, I will ask.

Without regard to whether or not flying is a privilege or right, as my question is stated, hypothetically, if true, how would that change your position, if at all? That is all I was trying to ask.

Thanks.

Also, FIRC stands for flight instructor refresher clinic.

[midlifeflyer]

There is no requirement for pilot logs or aircraft logbooks either.  All you are required to produce is required landings for currency to carry passengers, IPC, BFR etc.   Regarding aircraft maintenance records, all you need is the last 1 year's entries and any 337s, and weight and balance data. Anything else legally is not required to be kept, and so, you didnt keep it.   It can be on a sheet of notebook paper.

 

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

 

Do you know anyone who tosses out their maintenance records after 1 year and thereby lowers the resale value of their airplanes?

 

Or are you suggesting you only need to produce those portions of your aircraft logbook that show 1 year's worth of maintenance and current inspections and only those portions of your pilot logbook that show currency and can withhold the rest? If so, I'll have to disagree with you. I'm guessing so would the FAA and NTSB in the ensuing certificate suspension proceedings.

 

Or are you suggesting you intentionally lie to the FAA about having those things?

[Seth]

I'm curious. Is that what you do and say when a police officer stops you for a possible traffic violation and asks for your license and registration? 

It depends.  Of course each situation is different, but if you are indeed in real trouble, then yes.  This is of course after you present your license and registration.  If they ask to search the vehicle, your house, your property, your body, etc . . .

 

As stated earlier on the discussion, be cooperative to a point, be cordial, but if they ask something you are not comortable with, or could lead down the path to some sort of trouble, simply and politely refuese.  Each situation is different.

 

1.  I do not consent to this search

2.  I would like to speak with my layer

3.  I have no further comment

 

And then stay quiet until your lawyer meets you in at the local police station if it gets that far.  If you actually have to use these phrases, you're in trouble anyway and this will get you into less trouble.

 

Again disclosure - not a lawyer - AND haven't had to use it myself. 

 

 

But it has worked for others!

 

-Seth

[midlifeflyer]

I don't have a specific court decision, statute, or regulation. But the person that told me has a legal background in aviation law for many decades. Sorry, I wish I did know the source of his statement, but I do not. Next time I see him, I will ask.

I'm pretty sure he'll tell you you misunderstood what was said.

 

Whether considered a "right" or a "privilege," suspension or revocation is subject to a "right" - to due process under the 5th and 14th Amendments to the US Constitution. In general, all that requires is a process that provides a hearing and opportunity to challenge the government's action. Add to that the blurring of the original technical distinctions between the two, and, unless you are talking about Constitutional rights, it doesn't matter much, practically speaking, what you call it.  

 

For example, we have a Constitutional right to travel; there are those who argue this means that you have a "right to drive" with or without a drivers' license.  And no, they are not trying to be funny. 

 

Most likely, what you heard was a reference to the Pilots Bill of Rights. which changes some of the landscape of that process. It's not too hard to get the wrong takeaway from a discussion of that legislation. 

[flyboy0681]

Let's end the bickering now gentlemen.

 

How about we do this, for those of us that find ourselves in the unusual and rare position of undergoing a ramp check, one half go along and comply with the inspectors requests while the other half duke it out with him or her. Let's tally up the results and see which approach is best - being cooperative or combative.

[Z W]

Without regard to whether or not flying is a privilege or right, as my question is stated, hypothetically, if true, how would that change your position, if at all? That is all I was trying to ask.

 

 

A "right" can mean a lot of things.  Typically it's used referring to the Bill of Rights, found in the first ten amendments (Right to free speech, right to bear arms, right to be free from quartering troops during war, right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, etc...)

 

In my post, I was referring to our 4th amendment rights against searches and seizures.  Seizures includes seizing your person and putting you in jail.  There is no corresponding "right" to an airman certificate, so people commonly refer to it as a privilege.

 

If we had another constitutional amendment granting a constitutional right to an airman certificate, or driver's license, that would change the analysis in obvious ways, but that has not happened.  

 

In today's society, it has become almost impossible to be self-sufficient and survive without a driver's license in large portions of the country, and sometimes I wonder if there shouldn't be a right to drive.  At the very least, I think we take driving privileges away from too many people, for offenses that are too small.  But that's an entirely different topic.

[John Pleisse]

You must have a real hard-on for me or something,

 

Yes.

 

I am in complete agreement with Don Muncy's advice, in fact I prompted him to respond.  I will comply fully with any ramp inspection, I have been subjected to 8 or 10 so far. All went well.

 

The purpose of the discussion was the attached article and how one handles the FAA. Not how to confront or evade. Offering name, rank, serial number and your lawyer's biz card won't get you far. Of the 8 or 10, they were all part 91?

 

Where I draw the line is fishing expeditions and paper trails of pilot and aircraft records.

 

Of course, any reasonable person would. The liability of a former student in an enforcement action is far different than basic cooperation with the FAA in a ramp check.