HiFlyer Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 Hi Guys, I'm in the market for a Mooney and have been looking around for quite some time now. I will be typically using the airplane to fly back and forth between Sacramento and the Pacific Northwest where the IFR MEA's are relatively high (between 9k and 12k or so). My question is, for those of you who have been flying Ovations for a while, how are they when performing up high? I found a POH online to get the numbers from the charts, but I was wondering about their true performance from your experience in the low to mid teens (12-16k) without the blower up front. The truth is that I'm not sure if I want to spend the additional money to operate a turbo model (Bravo or 252), but realize that capability can be limited especially when flying on the left coast. In the opinion of those of you who have flown them, are they still a practical solution for west coast flying? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 For me if I have to move up from my J I think the Ovation is the way to go. I have no knowledge of the Ovation performance the mid and high teens so I look forward to the replies. My concern would be flying IFR for your route, do you want to stay in the soup or get above it? All my IFR flights in a NA planes in that area I couldn't effectively get above the weather. My last flight was solid IMC from Portland to Redding and it would have been nice to get above it. I would be more inclined to be in a Turbo for only that reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxMike Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 Newbie, I have flown that area of the country in my Bravo and think if your trips are "must make" you will be happier with a Turbo and TKS. No doubt that most of the time the Ovation will be good transportation but 15-16K is not always enough. Maybe you could find an Ovation with TKS to give the margin you need but your proposed route is rough and wet. I would get as much performance as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Zuffoletto Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 Newbie, I have flown that area of the country in my Bravo and think if your trips are "must make" you will be happier with a Turbo and TKS. No doubt that most of the time the Ovation will be good transportation but 15-16K is not always enough. Maybe you could find an Ovation with TKS to give the margin you need but your proposed route is rough and wet. I would get as much performance as possible. +1 When based at Napa I flew an Encore to Seattle, San Diego, and all points between for 7 years and was very glad during the winter that I could climb through freezing layers with TKS and get on top at FL200 or so. Wet, icy clouds are as big an issue as terrain out there. I doubt my Encore cost much more to operate and maintain than an Ovation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFlyer Posted April 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 TKS is a must and I have been looking at both purchasing with it already installed or installing after purchase. I have a quote request in with CAS right now and I'm guessing they are going to reply in the 40k range, which would put the total cost on par with what a well equipped decided Bravo or 252 would go for anyway. Reliability and efficiency are paramount and I've been reading some good posts here about operating the Bravos...it seems like if run in a conservative manner they can be reliable and make it to TBO from what folks are saying as well as have a reasonable fuel burn as long as you aren't trying to max perform the engine on every flight and leaning to 1750 TIT. Conservative operation on a regular basis and using the full range of performance when you need it seem to be the keys to success when operating a turbo model. A TKS Ovation has also been on my radar however, but on the one I've found the engine is approaching high time (1400 hrs) and would most likely be looking at overhaul in the next 3 years, so no matter how you roll the dice there will still be considerable additional expense in the near term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMcClure Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 I have had my Ovation for about 6 months. I haven't had it above 12,000 because I don't have much need on the east coast. Below is a link for good write up on the 280hp Ovation 2. (Just happens to be mine!!). This was before the 3 blade prop was added. http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20R%20Evaluation/M20R.htm The service ceiling on the Ovation is 20,000 ft. I can't give you a personal account on the performance at 20,000ft but have heard from several pilots that the Ovation performs well all the way up to the service ceiling. Mine doesn't have TKS. For an Alabama boy, that usually means flying 2-4,000' AGL and below the icing level when (rarely) it is a threat. I understand that is not an option for you. As for climb, I am really impressed on the climb rate all the way up to 12,000. I stepped out of a Turbo Bonanza because i was tired of the excess maintenance and fuel to run the thing when I rarely run above 12,000 anyway. That was the 520UB motor which is not nearly as good as the 550G. PS - the TBO on the 550 is 2,000 hours with an expected top half way. I don't know the TBO on the turbo models, but on the Bonanza it was only 1600 hours with cylinders every 400 hours. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkenney Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 I have an Ovation Based out of Zamperini Field in Torrance (KTOA). Getting out of the LA basin IFR usually means MEA's in the 10-12K range. The highest I have taken my Ovation was 13k, when I flew it from Texas to Phoenix. I would echo some of the comments people have made about getting up into the 15k range, which really means a turbo. The main reason I would prefer the extra altitude is because I get a decent amount of turbulence over the mountains and deserts at the 10-12k altitude and based on my conversations with other pilots who fly around the Socal area and deserts, a lot of that goes away when you are a few thousand feet higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFlyer Posted April 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 Are guys with turbo mooneys also looking at cylinder replacement every 400 hrs or so or do they at least make it to a top overhaul? Of course it depends on how you operate the engine I'm sure, but what would be a good estimate? I know there is also a lot of discussion on continental vs lycoming and their individual nuances... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 I am a flatlander from the midwest, but I do get out to the Rockies a few times a year. I have found that flying in the midwest in the summer means going to 16k fairly often, whenever the winds permit and sometimes even when they don't so much. It takes 16 to reliably get above the turbulence and chop that is a summer routine here. Out west, 16k is about a minimum. When flying the mountains you want to pick the VOR to VOR routes with the lowest MEA's, but that does not mean you want to fly at 8,000 or whatever the MEA might be. We have hit fairly stiff turbulence over the Sangre de Cristos (southern tip of the Rockies) at 16k. Provided the winds are not howling and in your face, the quiet space is 16-22k. I have heard people report that the Ovation is good to 18,000 but don't have personal experience with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFlyer Posted April 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 By the way, I appreciate the insight fellas...I've been flying jets for the Air Force for a long time now and am learning as much as I can before stepping into the world of high performance singles when the maintenance and operational cost isn't being covered by Uncle Sam! This site has been a great resource! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMcClure Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 For what it is worth, the link I gave you is almost exactly the real world performance of N1051K (2002 Ovation 2) with the exception of climb and take off which is much improved with the 3 blade prop. I plan on $45/hour for engine replacement and major maintenance plus fuel for operating costs. At 16 gph at $5.50/gallon = $133/hour fuel and maintenance. At 180knots, its less than $0.75/nm. My Bonanza B36TC was $200 hour with fuel and maintenance with just a little less speed. I don't mean to discourage you from a turbo model. I can see a reason to have one. But I think the Ovation is as good as it can get for a normally aspirated engine. The performance is at least as good as many Turbo models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFlyer Posted April 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 I've read that report several times over the last few weeks and it has some great information! I've been using the AOPA Cost calculator to figure operating expenses and that is about exactly what I have been coming up with for hourly expenses, which seems reasonable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Zuffoletto Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 Are guys with turbo mooneys also looking at cylinder replacement every 400 hrs or so or do they at least make it to a top overhaul? Of course it depends on how you operate the engine I'm sure, but what would be a good estimate? I know there is also a lot of discussion on continental vs lycoming and their individual nuances... When I bought my Encore it had 400 hours on it. I flew it by the book without sophisticated engine monitoring and had to get it topped at about 1,000 hours. I sold it shortly afterwards. With the Acclaim I have much better engine monitoring and I use that to run it very conservatively at 50LOP whenever possible. There I'm seeing CHT's in the high 200's. If I don't make it to TBO or at least pretty close running it like that I'd be surprised. But we shall see.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxMike Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 Operating cost is dependent on pilot habits. I have been operating turbo airplanes for 40 years or so. If you operate them like the salesman suggests it will cost a lot. If you can restrain yourself ( operate at 70-75%) the added cost of a blower is nominal. The wet head of the Bravo is one of the best ideas Lycoming ever came up with. Lycoming learned many years ago that Duke engines would not last longer than one cross country as the pilots demanded high power at high altitude. High power = lots of rejected heat. At low altitude the mass flow (cooling air) over the engine carries that rejected heat away. At high altitude mass flow of the cooling air flow is much less thus more heat retained by the engine. Result is engine parts wear faster. As you might remember from ground school 30% of the BTU's your engine produces turn the prop, the rest (70%) go out the exhaust or through the cylinder head. If you keep the power at a reasonable level the amount of rejected heat will be low enough the cooling air flow will be able to carry the heat away. The down side to the turbo is that cooling air requirements results in more drag (bigger inlet area required). Also at low altitude the blower runs slow which increases back pressure in exhaust system. You then have to burn more fuel to get the same power. Mooney has done a reasonably good job of designing their turbo engine cowls to meet the demands of altitude flying. If you just forget what the salesman told you everything will be OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted April 16, 2013 Report Share Posted April 16, 2013 I operate a tks fiki bravo over the questioners route 5 to 6 times yearly.Spring and Fall an ovation is doable as long as no weather is forecasted....summer an altitude over 15 k over the siskous is what my GF wants to see for the smooth ride.Winter time....any weather at all and that route from Redding on is an ice factory.I have used more gallons of tkb over that route than any where else I have flown.I cant explain it but pacific winter storms (stratus layers)pack more ice per mile than anywhere I have flown in Idaho,Montana ,Colorado ,BC.Probably just my luck but I have had no bad icing experiences flying upper new york state or Pennsylvania...places known for freezing rain....I am ,of course Biased...but Id get a tks Bravo and let the equipment bail you out when you make a bad call on the weather like I someimes do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 I operate a tks fiki bravo over the questioners route 5 to 6 times yearly.Spring and Fall an ovation is doable as long as no weather is forecasted....summer an altitude over 15 k over the siskous is what my GF wants to see for the smooth ride.Winter time....any weather at all and that route from Redding on is an ice factory.I have used more gallons of tkb over that route than any where else I have flown.I cant explain it but pacific winter storms (stratus layers)pack more ice per mile than anywhere I have flown in Idaho,Montana ,Colorado ,BC.Probably just my luck but I have had no bad icing experiences flying upper new york state or Pennsylvania...places known for freezing rain....I am ,of course Biased...but Id get a tks Bravo and let the equipment bail you out when you make a bad call on the weather like I someimes do... I fly for work (and pleasure) out of KLMT, primarily to the east from Redmond (bend) down towards Tulelake... And you're not joking: more ice in the wintertime there than I've seen anywhere in my career. That includes norther Japan, the Korean Peninsula, Afghanistan in the winter / spring and out over the ocean on the east coast (N. VA). I haven't flown in the Midwest, though, and I hear that's an ice factory too..,, For what it's worth, I fly a J out of KLMT and fly to central Idaho, Central Wyoming and Colorado on a fairly regular basis (once a month or so), and have no problems. I don't use the mask, as I've got two (very) little ones. I don't fly IFR through the Rockies, and in the wintertime I'm VFR only because the icing is so prevelant. No anti ice on my plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFlyer Posted April 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 Thanks guys...looks like a TKS 252 or Bravo is the way to go for my needs. Now, who's selling?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 When I bought my Encore it had 400 hours on it. I flew it by the book without sophisticated engine monitoring and had to get it topped at about 1,000 hours. I sold it shortly afterwards. With the Acclaim I have much better engine monitoring and I use that to run it very conservatively at 50LOP whenever possible. There I'm seeing CHT's in the high 200's. If I don't make it to TBO or at least pretty close running it like that I'd be surprised. But we shall see.... Joe, you might find that 50 LOP is a little lean of the max efficiency of the engine. The APS guys are recommending 15-25 LOP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 We routinely fly the O1 X-country (200nm) at 11,500' VFR or 12,000' IFR. Staying under O2 levels. Mostly personal travel. So no FIKI either. Climbs quickly to top nearby Class B air space... It's not quite turbo, but the extra pair of cylinders helps a lot. We had 1800 hours out of the cylinders without requiring replacement. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 Thanks guys...looks like a TKS 252 or Bravo is the way to go for my needs. Now, who's selling?!? Parker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFlyer Posted April 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 I saw that...unfortunately his isn't equipped with TKS. I haven't heard back from CAS yet on the TKS installation quote but I'm guessing it would put the total cost close to $200k...not out of the question however. Also, in 3000 hrs of flying I have never had the privelage of flying a Mooney...before I bite the bullet and buy one, is there anyone in the greater Sacramento/San Fran area who might be willing to go flying one weekend for gas and lunch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted April 19, 2013 Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 If you're ever TDY to San Antonio let me know and I'd be happy to take you in my 231. Ray (USAF, ret) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 I can help you with that as I am based at ksac...feel free to pm me..kpc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted May 8, 2013 Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 I'm from New England, but I have had the TKS Ovation out to Seattle and back, and took it up to 16k and even had cause to turn on the TKS. Perhaps an Encore or Bravo would be a better choice, and the extra power useful for higher altitude fields as well, but I had no problem getting up to 16k near max gross. What you lose at that point is airspeed... Not a big deal with a tail wind, but a much bigger deal if you have to go high into the winds... So I wouldn't rule out the Ovation - I personally think it is the perfect Mooney. Encore/252 would be my second choice - just didn't like the fuel flows in a Bravo Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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