Prospective Vintage Mooney buyers

[GeorgePerry]

If you’re considering purchasing a new "older" Mooney...Congrats on making a very wise choice.  Dollar for Dollar and knot for knot you can't find a more versatile, efficient, FAST and economical plane.  If you’re looking for advice here are a few humble words that you might want to consider:

 

1. Understand each M20 model  (C, E, F, G, and J Models) and the differences in order to pick the one that best suits your needs. Here's a link to the Mooney Model chronology. 

 http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm  

When I was in the market, I used the following list of desires to help shape me search.  I wanted ‘real” room for 4, fuel injection, Electric Gear / Flaps, a Modern “6 pack” panel and I wanted it all at a reasonable price.   

a. Room…This ruled out the C or E models (4 will fit, but the extra inches in an F or J are nice)
b. Fuel injection …This ruled out the C or G models
c. Electric Gear & Flaps…70’s vintage models or one with the factory options (Manual systems are fine too and Johnson bar owners swear by them...I just wanted electric)
d. Modern 6 Pack…70’s vintage or a plane that had the modification
e. Price…$75K will get you a run out J or an extremely well maintained and equipped E or F.  

Some folks have asked if "speed" was a factor and of course it was, but the difference between the oldest unmodded C and the newest M20J MSE with all the aero updates is about 15-20 knots in cruise.  That's a significant difference but as with all things that go fast, speed costs money.  The faster you go the more you will spend.  But know that even an unmodded F model will out perform a brand new SR20 in almost every category, so even if you go with a more vintage model by comparison, you'll still be moving pretty fast. 

 

2. Understand the Costs of ownership
a. Insurance (I use AOPA) can be expensive especially if you’re a low time pilot. With an ATP and 5000 hrs TT and >700 in Mooneys I pay just a tick over $960 a year for full flight coverage.
b. Hanger…Please don’t buy a Mooney and park it on the ramp. If you’re going to keep a plane outside, buy a Cherokee. Hanger rent depends on where you keep it, but plan on at least $200-400 p/month...or more if you hanger in a metro area such as LA or Orlando.
c. Fuel / Oil. Gas is expensive $5-7 a gallon. At 10-12 gal/hr it’s easy to spend $6k a year just on gas
d. Maintenance. A "no problems" Annual runs about $1500-2500 bucks or more.  Problems that come up will cost more in parts and labor.  No one can tell you what might pop up, so use your best judgment to figure out what to set aside for routine and unscheduled maintenance expenses. After you do that double it and you’ll probably be safe.
e. Incidentals such as headsets, charts, transportation to and from your repair station etc. also need to be considered.

 

3. Narrow your search ...Once you (or your wife) decides that you can afford a Mooney, try to focus on one model. 

 

4. Market valuations have changed significantly over the past couple of years. Once you know which M20 to pursue, then consider some of the following.  Vref and other "pricing" services may not be very accurate.  As of Oct 2008, the market is very soft and buyers are in the driver’s seat.  Before you call about a plane make sure it meets your basic criteria (equipment, engine/airframe times, desired avionics).  Look at controller and trade-a-plane well in advance of when you intend to "get serious".  See what's out there and get a feel for what current owners want in terms of dollars to part with their machines.  Also, be aware that buying a plane isn't like buying a used ford.  There just aren't that many available at any given time.  So be ready to exercise some patience and wait (months if needed) for the right plane to come to market.  In conjunction with price and availability, the following is my opinion on a list of updates and Mods that you may want to strongly consider. They are in order of importance:

 

MUST HAVES

a. No Corrosion!! Nothing's harder to get rid of or repair. Along those lines...don’t buy a plane that hasn’t been hangered. It’s indicative of the care the previous owner gave the bird. (CA and AZ and Nevada are dry, but they are also very HOT. Interiors and avionics don’t like easy bake ovens.

b. NO FUEL LEAKS:  O/N Bladders mod or a fresh resealing preformed by a reputable shop.  I prefer to find a plane that has the bladders already installed, but many prefer a reseal for a variety of reasons.   If the fuel system needs attention, i.e you see leaking fuel, you'll need either a "quality" reseal or the O&N bladder mod.  When it's all said and done, either will cost $7-8K.  Knock that amount right off the asking price before you even begin to negotiate...

c. New Hartzell prop with the “B” hub. The new hub doesn’t require the recurring “eddy current” inspection. Also be cautious of “F” models with 3 blade props. Some may have a strange harmonic/vibration that most find very annoying.
d. Modern Avionics…Something like a King Silver Crown stack...Or better yet if you can find a nice plane with a Garmin 430, great. But any IFR certified GPS will do. Stay away from old-ish avionics.  Digital boxes are the minimum I'd accept.  Repairs or upgrades will add up fast if you have to update the panel.  As nice as new avionics are - they dont' make you go any faster.
e. Almost - All the Log Books. You really want to have all the logs from day one, but if the aircraft has a solid documented history that goes back 20+ years without a break then that’s OK. AD's are of course mandatory, and SB's are "mostly" optional.  If you find a plane with all AD's and a bunch of SB's in the logs that's a good sign, esp if SB 208 (tubular inspection for corrosion and window reseal) has been complied with.  Documented Oil changes at regular intervals (30-40 hours or every 6 months) is also really nice to see.  Just make sure you have a thorough pre-purchase inspection (or better yet an annual) done by a non biased shop with Mooney experience. You can negotiate the cost of the inspection/annual into the sales price of the plane.  A list of Mooney SB's can be found this link. 
http://www.mooney.com/servicepdf/1967.html

f. A clear picture on the history of the plane.  Check the history of the plane at http://report.myairplane.com/  and http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx  It's kind of like Car-Fax for aircraft.  Often times it'll reveal things the seller doesn't put in the ad.  It's not a perfect database,  but it's better than nothing.  Check all the boxes and hit "go".  

 

NICE TO HAVES

f. Paint and Interior…Lots of great well maintained M20’s that could use a little freshening up…but I wouldn’t pass on a plane just because the paint or interior is old. These are not safety related items. If your perspective bird is in need of P or I plan on about $7 to 10K for each later down the road if you want to have it done.
g. Low time and year engine…Engines need TLC about every 10-12 years regardless of the time on the motor. Try to find one that the owner had rebuilt (by a reputable shop…not nessesarily the local A&P) within 2-5 years and has about 200-1000 hours on it. It’s good to see an engine that’s been flown regularly. If a motor sits for months without starting that should be a red flag. Also during the pre buy have an oil change performed and send off the oil for analysis. Make an “acceptable” oil analysis results part of the pre purchase contract.  I like to check
http://flightaware.com/ to see how many recent flights a particular N # has.  In my opinion, its "good" to see an airplane with several flights p/month meaning its used regularly. 

h. The “Right” time airframe. If you’re looking at a 30-40 year old Mooney with 900 hours on the airframe something’s wrong. Likewise 7-9000 hours is getting up there. 2500-5000 hours airframe time should be about normal depending on the year. (figure about 50-100hrs annually for the life of the bird as a rough figure)
i. NDH…Finding a bird that hasn’t scraped any paint is desirable but not necessarily a show stopper. If the damage was documented and repaired to factory specs (preferably by a Mooney service center) I wouldn’t let that stop me from pursuing a good airplane...albiet at 10-15% discount.
j. Modifications.  Long ----- Long list of what can be done to update older Mooneys, so you have to decide what you want or can live without. Know that 201 updates like the windshield and the nose cowling add to the value of the plane, so expect to pay more for one that has extensive 201 updates. Just make sure they were done by a reputable shop and well documented. Also all mods are not created equal. (201 type cowl mod may look similar too but may not be a factory 201 cowl) So do your homework to make sure you know exactly what you’re getting.  Many who've done extensive Modifications find only modest speed gains.  Also, understand the costs of Mods that you'd "like to do" after the purchase.  It doesn't take too many Mods/updates done to an E or F in to put you into good 201 price territory.  My rule of thumb is "one major mod" every year...usually in conjunction with the annual.

5. Find a knowledgeable Mooney person to help you find a plane. You can use a broker or just try to do it yourself, but it's always best to take along a friend or A&P that knows Mooneys. Brokers are salesmen and what’s in your best interests may not be in their best interests. Doing it yourself is an option but I recommend taking a Mooney smart friend or mechanic along esp if your relatively new to General Aviation. They’ll hopefully give you an honest opinion and good advice.  They can talk sense into you if that shinny new paint job is blinding you from the oil leaks under the cowl.  Having someone with you that has Mooney knowledge is IMPORTANT!  They will be able to quickly tell you if it's a plane worth spending the time and money to pursue any further...Talking with prospective sellers - Red flags to look out for.

 

1.     “My buddy is an A&P and he does all the work” 

2.     “I just had the oil changed” not a good thing right before pre-buy inspection

3.     “It burns no oil” All engines burn oil

4.     “X is broken, but I plan on getting it fixed before the sale”

5.     “It’s out of annual, but you can get a ferry permit”

6.     “I can’t find the work order receipts for the last few Annuals”

7.     “The GPS (IFR) data card isn’t up to date right now”

8.     “I can’t remember the name of the shop that did my last annual right now, I’ll have to check my paperwork”

9.     “I keep the plane on a tie down”

10.   “I can’t find all the log books, but I’ll have them before you come to look at the plane”

11. "If you don't use a broker, you could get stuck with a lemon"

 

(Yes, I heard all of these while I was looking for my plane)..................

 

Pre-Buy inspection  If you've found a good candidate and want to move forward, here's the next step.  One thing you WILL want to have, is a solid pre-purchase agreement in writing.  If you don’t have a comprehensive pre-buy agreement in writing, it doesn’t take long for inspections that don’t result in a sale to get very expensive for the prospective buyer.  Pre-buy agreement should cover the basics of who pays for what in the event the inspection comes back with issues that need to be addressed.  Pre-purchase inspections can range from a quick once over by an A&P to a full blown annual inspection.  I recommend just having an annual inspection performed.  Pre-buys (w/o annual) cost around $500-$700.  A "no dings" annual should be in the $1500 to $2000 neighborhood.  The advantages of an annual over a quick pre-buy are that inspection is done by YOUR A&P not the seller's buddy.  Also the plane is now legal for flight for one calendar year form the date of inspection.  Either way, traditionally, before anyone shells out any money the buyer should agree (in writing) to pay the cost of the pre-buy/annual and the seller for any required repairs (anything un-airworthy) as a result of the pre buy inspection.   The pre-buy "dink list" (airworthy discrepancies) will require follow on negotiations depending on what is discovered.  Good examples of pre-purchase agreements can be found both on the AOPA website and EAA.

 

 

Distance is an issue...Since Mooneys don't grow on trees, either the buyer or seller might have to travel.  If a seller is willing to bring the plane to you for the pre-buy that's a GOOD sign.  If not, then things can get a bit problematic.  My rule of thumb was; As a buyer, I'll travel to do the initial "look-see" to check out the plane and to let the seller know I'm serious.  But the pre-buy MUST be performed by whomever I decide on.  If it's impractical to fly the airplane to the buyer’s home base, then the pre-buy can be performed by the closest Mooney Service Center or reputable shop that comes recommended and has extensive experience working on Mooneys.  A Pre-buy only inspection should take several hours, if not most of the day.  If a seller has to fly the plane to the shop of your choice, then they need to be prepared to spend an entire day...anything less than that and the pre-buy probably isn't as thorough as you'd like it to be.  Bottom line if the the seller won't agree (within reason, +/- one hour's flight time) to bring the plane to you, a MSC or a shop of your choice, keep looking.

 

Short list of Mooney Specific items to pay close attention to during a pre-buy:

 

 

1. Fuel Leaks - Quality fuel tank reseal or O&N bladder repairs performed

2. Prop Hub AD (with the old style Hartzel hub)

3. Corrosion (look inside the tail - it should be green, not brown)

4. Airframe (P&I) and avionics

5. Wear in the Nose gear steering horn assembly and Nose gear truss damage (If the nose gear moves from side to side while up on jacks or the airplane "darts" after nose wheel touchdown you've got a problem)

6. Landing gear maintenance/ donuts (Any cracks = replacment soon)

7. Loose Tail.  Grab at the bottom and gently lift (almost no movement is correct)

8. Damage history, but as long as it has been repaired /documented properly not necessarily a showstopper

9. Who performed the last engine overhaul.  (local A&P is not as good as a reputable shop like Penn Yan Aero or Lycoming)

10. Well maintained / organized logbooks and lots of recent receipts (w/in the past year)

11. Link to the MAPA site with lots of great information.  http://www.mooneypilots.com/logsample.html

12. Good prebuy check list from Lasar Mooney.  Check list from LASAR's website. They also have a good buyer's guide too.

 

6. After Purchase cost creep...Also unless you have uncommon self control, know that after you buy your Mooney you’ll probably spend about 10-20% of the purchase price in upgrades / modification / needed improvements or maintenance in the first year of ownership. Rarely does someone find the “perfect” plane. Everyone wants to put a personal touch on the "new" airplane after it becomes theirs.

7. Last but not least…if you forget everything else I’ve said this is the one piece of advice just about everyone should agree on. Buy the newest, nicest, best maintained and documented plane you can afford. An additional $5-20K spent during the purchase, if done wisely, will be pennies on the dollar compared to getting a “basket case” for what seems like a sweet deal. If it's obvious the previous owner didn’t take care of his Mooney, won't agree to a "reasonable" pre-purchase agreement …walk away.

 

 
Good luck with your search…

 

Since I get PM's regularly asking for advice, I wanted to provide alittle information about the author:  I started flying 30 years ago.  Since that time I've accumulated over 6000 hours in over 150 different types of GA and Naval aircraft. I've owned 2 Mooney's, and have over 1000 hours in various Mooney models.  For the last 18 years, I've proudly served my country as a Naval Aviator flying F-14's and F-18's and prior to this, I've been a FBO Lineman, Flight instructor, Freight Dog, 135 Charter Pilot, Jump Pilot, and Aircraft Sales Broker.  More recently I've consulted for two startup part 135 air taxi companies.  I love helping folks get started in GA, especially those interested in Mooney's.  Making wise pre-purchase decisions starts with becoming informed and knowledgeable on the mark.  

[Snorkle941]

I have a Mooney M20D/C for a partnership or will consider sale. It meets almost all of the criteria listed in George Perry's piece. It's a great low time aircraft and engine. Anyone interested please post your email address and I will get to you.

[kellym]

Each to their own. Two criteria for any Mooney I would consider....must have manual gear, and must not have bladders.

Manual gear is much less maintenance than electric, saving on annual costs, and there is no acutuator to break, none of the other details that cause problems on the electric gear models.

Bladders are heavy and Mooneys have limited useful load anyway. The 54 gal setup weighs 30lbs and add the extra 2 gal to carry around and now you have cut useful load by 42 lbs. The 64 gal setup is another 8-10 lbs. Bladders can and do leak. The 54 gallon setup puts 3 bladders in each wing, each with an interconnect tube, plus the fuel line connection or 4 pts that can leak.  A properly sealed Mooney tank should be good for 20 years, if done by a place like Willmar or Midwest Mooney.

[GeorgePerry]

Thus the preface "my opinion" since I know some might take issue......

Personal preferences will always be personal...Each potential buyer will have specific desires and requirements, but it's important to make sure we discuss facts, and not state opinion as such.

Here are the facts:  Every Mooney since 1976 has been built with electric gear; If manual gear was so great Mooney would still use it.  Electric gear is no more maintenance intensive than manual.  During the annual a drop check is performed and rigging is checked...exactly the same as the manual geared Mooneys.  Electric LG motors can fail...if it does, then yes there is an added expense.  

Fact: From a safety stand point the electric geared Mooney's are among the safest, most reliable RG aircraft in the GA fleet.  http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/Query.asp  There are numerous cases of "Johnson bar" Mooneys having landing gear failures after pilots didn’t ensured the gear was "locked" down.   

Your right about the Bladders.  Fuel Bladders do add to the aircraft's empty weight...On mine the useful load was reduced by 37.8 LBS. (New Fuel capacities are as follows: 57.3 gal Total, 54.8 gal usable)

Personal Opinion: I wouldn't refer to a 987 lbs useful load with bladders as “limited”.  With full fuel, that leaves 643 lbs for people and bags (on my plane...Others may differ).

Sealed tanks: If they don't leak and haven't ever leaked consider yourself lucky...don't change anything.  When your rivets start turning blue consider the following:

Your wrong when you say a properly sealed tank should last for 20 years...If that were the case then weeping wings wouldn't be such a prolific problem with both old and NEW aircraft.  There are lots of Mooney owners with aircraft MUCH less than 20 years old that have leaking wings.  According to your logic the Mooney factory doesn't know how to seal wings?...only Willmar and MW Mooney do. 

Fact: The costs of a "good" (Willmar or MW Mooney) re-seal can cost MORE than getting the O&N bladders installed ($6975 v/s $5800)...and 10 different Mooney maintenance facilities throughout the country can install them.  I don't want to fly to MN to make sure I get a good re-seal.  http://www.lonestaraero.com/t-maintenance.aspx and http://www.onaircraft.com/Mooney.htm

Fact:  O&N equipped Mooneys have higher resale values.  Once O&N bladders are installed, owners NEVER have to reseal the wing again.  Owners with O&N bladders swear by them.  Owners who've paid for multiple re-seals in just a few years time pay far more than what the bladders would have cost in the first place. 

Fact: O&N bladders are constructed of heavy-duty vulcanized neoprene and nylon, manufactured by Aero Tech Services, Los Angeles. The installation comes with a five-year warranty. Requires approximately 40 man-hours for installation.  A Mooney service center says this about re-seal: MSC advises to remove wing, clean and reseal with PR 1422B2 then coat with PRC 1422A2 as a topical brushable cover. This process comes without guarantee or warranty.  Another well know Mooney service center in TX says. "Mooney Complete Strip & Reseal Fuel Tanks with one (1) year warranty"

Your right about leaks: No mechanical system is perfect and the O&N bladders are no different...but the instances of leaks after the bladders are installed is very small and if they are going to leak, it'll happen while its under warranty. 

 

[Greg_D]

George, you cited one of the reasons I left off my list for not getting bladders: up until recently, they reduced the amount of fuel you could carry in an F or J model.  O&N has newer kits that will add the cpacity back, but with an associated additional loss of useful load.  The bladders actually add capacity on the models with 50 gallon tanks.  I used to own a '67 F model.  When one of my tanks developed a leak after 40 years in service, it only cost me $500 to get it repaired properly.

I also understand people's preference for the manual gear.  It is cheaper to maintain amd repair.  In fact, an annual inspection at a Monney Service Center is priced $200-$300 less for a plane with manual gear vs. electric gear.  Why? Because it is easier to inspect and set-up.  And the checks are very different between the two types of gear.  Repairs are also much cheaper.  The ony parts that would require replacement are linkages, springs, etc.  When you compare that to the cost of gear actauators, no back spring repalcement, etc. on the electric gear models, it quickly becomes apparent how expensive the eletric gear is. All of that said,  I'm pretty sure Mooney wouldn't put manual gear on a $600K airplane, no matter how good it was.

[TurboExec]

Having manual gear just takes out one more failure point...And I'll bet my manual gear is faster than your electric gear.

As for the bladders if you do not keep them nearly full when you park you invite dry rot.  While I was working at a maintenance facility we had to remove some bladders and they were completely dry rotted from sitting half full or less over time.  They were so hard we had to use a come along to pull them out, and then there were parts that were so brittle you could crack it apart in your hand.

I just did a seal repair on my Mooney, it took me and my IA about 6 horus of work over 3 days and about $50 in sealant.

[GeorgePerry]

Adam,

All valid points...but for those of us who aren't A&P's and must take our birds to a shop to have this type of work done, we will have to write a very big check. (see the links or call Willmar for a quote)  The list of owners suffering from poorly resealed tanks performed by various shops is long.  If Mooney owners want quality work, they will most likely have to pay for it.  The bladders aren't perfect, but for the average guy they offer alot of advantages and a warranty. 

[kellym]

Quote: JimR

Put me firmly in the O&N bladder camp.  I have owned or operated two Mooneys (65C & 78J) since 1982.

Except that they do add weight, don't believe the negative hype about bladders.  People who have owned them are uniformly satisfied with them. 

[GeorgePerry]

Gents,

I never intended this to become an discussion about gear and bladders...it's about how someone interested in buying an early Mooney should approach the process.  I stated right from the beginning that my list of priorities were my OPINION.  Point being, anyone interested in buying a Mooney needs to do alittle homework to make themselves smart about all the options and mods they may or may not want to have.

The only reason I took issue with some of the comments is that I beleive it's important that when we (the experts) pass along information, readers should know if it's personal opinion or factually based.  If posters state information as fact then it should be backed up with hard numbers and/or statistics.  If you "feel" or "think" something is true, that doesn't make it so, albiet a valid point of view.

Please feel free to continue to poke holes in my "perspective buyers info".  With all the experience out there it can only help the next guy who decides to write a check for a Mooney "N" number.

cheers 

[M20BE]

Some darn good posts here !!! NICE! thx

[N9660M]

A healthy discussion by all.  It's good to read different points of view when establishing your own priorities for an airplane.  George's post is right on the money in terms of how someone should approach purchasing a Mooney.

I have to admit though...I really like the manual gear and flaps on my '67 F model

[721lp]

Has anyone had any experience withy Wetwingologists in Fort Lauderdale?

[N207LS]

This is a very comprehensive posting, but  I am going to add my 2 cents worth...  I have owned my 1968 M20G for almost five years and it is my first Mooney.  I have owned and flown several aircraft before, but can truly say that I have never fallen in love with an airplane until my Mooney. 

If I were to buy another Mooney, there are a few things that I would insist on...  First, check the age of the rubber donuts on the airplane prior to buying (mine were original and had to be replaced at my first annual ($75-85 each x 11 plus labor = very expensive).  Second, I would insist on a complete strip and reseal if there was any sign of a leak, seep, or weep.  My tanks were patched in 1984, 1993, 2004, and 2006, but have never been stripped & resealed since new (over 40 years old).  I purchsed the plane in 2005 and in retrospect should have made the strip/reseal part of the deal.  There was a one very small seep when I bought the plane, within a year there were a few seeps in both tanks.  At my first annual in 2006 (done at Florida Flight Maintenence in Venice, FL aka Mooney Mart (a complete ripoff, but I'll save that for another day) both of my tanks were "repaired" ($1800).  Now in 2009 I am going for the strip/reseal at Wet Wingologists (see my post under that thread).  Most likely I should have had this done in 2005 and could have avoided the patch job in 2006 (and saved $1800).  Third, I would insist on speed mods.  I have every available 201 J model speed mod (except inner gear doors and the sigle piece belly), as well as the Power Flow exhaust.  I routinely fly at 20" and 2300 RPM cruising at 130kts, burning 8 - 8.5 GPH (3-5,000 ft).  This is where owning a Mooney is a great experience!  Most vintage Mooneys have some mods, but I would search out a plane that had more mods.  My expereince leads me to believe that adding speed to your vintage Mooney costs about $2000 per MPH and depreciates rapidly.  I agree with the earlier post of preferring the Johnson Bar gear (it will save you thousands of $$$ later between annuals and maintenence).  I also love my hydraulic flaps (maybe not a necessity, but really nice and easy).  A couple of other points include avionics upgrades and nice paint.  I think that any Mooney should have recent avionics.  Older avionics are very expensive to upgrade and you can easily invest $20-30k in a panel upgrade.  Paint jobs are not cheap either.  New paint on a Mooney will run $10-20k from a reputable shop.  There are cheaper paint jobs out there, but you get what you pay for. 

These are my thoughts on buying a Mooney.  All in all, I think that a vintage Mooney is most likely the best dollar for dallar value in the used aiplane market.  Just make sure that you are getting the airplane that you are paying for.  

[The-sky-captain]

Aaron- I was raised in Hammond, LA

I agree with you 100% on your opinion of Mooney Mart. I bought a plane from Coy Jacobs (Mooney Mart) upon closing on the loan I got a bill from the Venice airport for a three week ramp fee. Come to find out after I closed the loan he kept my plane on the ramp for weeks while he pushed the ones that had only given him down payments ahead of me for interiors, avionics… It’s crazy how phones and email quit working after a deal is closedJ

He talked me into letting his shop do the pre buy being they were a top 5 Mooney shop in the world. I believed him since he is known for his Mooney knowledge. In short, it was a disaster. I am not mechanicaly inclined but here’s what I found the day the pilot ferried it to my hanger:

1-The engine would cut out and run rough on taxi and while airborne. Upon further inspection we found the induction tubes were very loose and wouldn’t tighten. The gaskets were found to be so rotted they crumbled when removed.

2- The ram air door was in backwards and wouldn’t close using the ram air handle in the cabin. It would open but I had to manually push it closed from the outside of the plane. The door was open when the plane landed…. Not good!

3-A hole the size of a half dollar was in the cabin heat scat hose.               

4-The prop seal was leaking oil which was obvious when looked at. The seal was beyond repair so I had the prop rebuilt at annual. My mechanic said it looked like the spinner had not been removed in years, must less at the pre buy.

5-The plugs were filthy. They had to be gapped and cleaned immediately which makes me wonder if they even pulled them for compressons.

6- On a smaller note numerous dirt dauber nests, missing screws and camlocks were found under the cowling. Not a big deal but it shows they don’t really care about the condition of the plane when it is delivered.

7-I had him do the interior along with the 430, A/P... The headrests had fallen off by the time the plane reached me. The leather above the armrest and sidewalls had pulled away and had fallen off too by the time the plane got to me and dried glue was all over the royalite. Bad first impression of my new interior.

8-I don't see how a highly regarded Mooney shop could miss all of these things if a pre buy actually took place. When I talked to him about my concerns he proceeded to drop a few verbal “bombs” and told me that I didn’t know what I was talking about. He than continued to rattle on about his expertise.

All in all the plane is very clean. It has a good overhaul from G&N and has no corrosion. I’ve been very happy with it now that I have the squawks worked out.  If any of you are looking for a Mooney broker I recommend you steer clear of this guy. It was by far the worst experience I have ever had buying something and I am in the buying and selling biz. HORRIBLE customer service!

[GeorgePerry]

Not to pile on....but, I had a similar experience with them.  Not as expensive as yours, but none the less frustrating.  When I was in the market for a new interior getting them to return emails and/or phone calls was next to impossible.  After a few attempts to engage them in a dialoge about a quote with no sucsess, I figured I'd be wise to look elsewhere to spend my money...After speaking with some local buddies who also own/fly mooneys about MM's reputation my suspicions were confirmed.

Since I learned from an early age not to present problems, without suggesting a solution, there are four Mooney shops I've been very pleased with.  In no particular order:  South West Texas Aviation, Lasar in CA, Freeway MSC just outside DC, and Air Mods MSC in NJ.  Oh, and my local shop, Aerodyne here in VaBch is top notch as well, although not a certified MSC.

[The-sky-captain]

My overhauled prop sure does look pretty though!

[avcheck]

Hello,

I have signed up to this board as it seems to have lots of activity. I would like to drill down further on the potential Mooney purchase angle. I am seeking an a/c for trips from Canada to FL or Bahamas (approx 1000NM). Many other trips would be 500NM or less. Need speed that only a few single engines can provide. I have researched Mooneys for some time including reading Backward Tales from MM. It strikes me that M20F is best value option, with J as #2 and 231 as the wish list option. I would like more info from anyone who would care to contribute.1. Is a well maintained F better than a run out J for value?

1. 
   
2. Is a well maintained F better than a lesser maintained J?
   
3. Is Rajay F or Turbo Bullet a viable alternative to 231 to allow for over weather for long trips and still have 4 banger maintenance costs?
   
4. Can annuals be really kept to $2K or are $5K annuals the norm?
   
5. Is it possible to get turn key well maintained F and J models? For how much?
   
6. Many people have websites with pimped C, E and 231 models but it seems they have way more money in than they can ever get out? Can you buy and fly without spending like mad? Annuals and upgrades combined are $50K in some cases.
   
7. Do the Rajays or Bullets affect resale value?
   
8. Are C and E models only good for 2 people? How happy are C and E owners relative to the stretched models?
   
9. Are there any Mooney shops in Canada? If not is regular A&P, AME suitable?
   
10. Has anyone bought in USA and imported to Canada? From Mooney Mart or All American? How hard is it?
    
11. Is appraisal necessary along with pre-buy?
    
12. Is 231 really that much faster given the cost difference?
    
13. Is a 231 really a maintenance pig compared to the others?
    
14. Hangars are prohibitive or non-existent where I live. Can a Mooney be maintained adequately with full a/c cover, realizing it is not optimal?
    

Any other help or info would be appreciated? I am trying to determine how realistic it is to own and operate a Mooney. The speed is important and necessary to justify moving away from rental a/c which are useless for longer trips. The only other single engine possibilities appear to be Comanche (more gas, ADs), Viking (wood wing, no hangar bad), Dakota (slow and pricey), and Mooneys. Value wise I like the C and E models but feel the extra size of at least F is necessary. What is the realistic norm for entry price for good a/c and realistic cost to fly and operate?

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

2. Is Rajay or Turbo Bbullet a viable alternative to 231 to allow over weather for very long trips? Would this allow for some 231 benefits and lesser maintenance of 4 banger?

 

 

 

[GeorgePerry]

I'll offer my humble opinion on aircraft purchase options...but many of your questions are already answered within this tread.  You might want to start at the beginning and re-read.  I woluld also recommend reading the 201 v/s 231 thread.  I think you'll find it very well written and useful.

After digesting the theme and spirit of your questions, I get the sense that your looking for the best tradeoff between speed and value. (Aren't we all)  The good news here is that Mooneys win this contest hands down against all other certified aicraft .  Infact a "old" F will outperform a brand new Sirrus SR 20 in just about every catagory.   With that said, a fact that is as certain as death and taxes is...Speed costs money.  E&F's are by comparision inexpensive...J's go faster and cost more.  231's go even faster and cost even more.  It's not how fast you want to go, it's how fast can you afford to go.

 Is a well maintained F better than a run out J for value? - You've got the right idea, but your asking the wrong question.  First you have to decide what you can afford then decide which model is right for you.  Airplanes take alot of care and feeding (translation $$) to keep them flying and in good shape.  A "run out" anything will cost you more in the not-so-long run than buying a well cared for model. 

Is a well maintained F better than a lesser maintained J? - your question is analogous to asking if a well maintained Porsche is better than a beat up Ferrari.  Neither comparison makes sense nor is it very helpful...Don't compare apples to oranges.

Is Rajay F or Turbo Bullet a viable alternative to 231 to allow for over weather for long trips and still have 4 banger maintenance costs? - I have no experience with Mod-ed turbo Mooneys, but if your looking for outright economy over speed then you probably want to stick with a NA motor.  If speed is your ultimate goal then, a turbo mooney might be worth looking into.

Can annuals be really kept to $2K or are $5K annuals the norm? - The short answer is..."It depends"  If you buy a basket case thinking your getting a deal, stand by, your first annual will probably be a real shock to the wallet.  If you have a Mooney experienced A&P perform a comprehensive pre-buy before you sign of the dotted line, there probably won't be any surprises during the next annual, but no guarantees.  Most MSC's quote $1500-$2000 for a "nothings wrong" annual.  But something always needs fixing...that's a given.   Typical Annual costs average $3-5K after the shop finds items that need attention.

Is it possible to get turn key well maintained F and J models? For how much?  The short answer is...Yes and "It depends"  I would check controller and trade a plane to get a feel for market prices.  You need to qualify "turn key"...When using that phrase, I assume you mean ZERO outstanding issues with fresh P&I and a very low time SFRM engine.   Each bird is unique and batching F's and J's into a range is really just that...a very wide range.  But "in general" I would expect to pay $55 to 85K for a very well maintained F with modern avionics, a low time engine, a "B" hub with no eddy current AD and no other outstanding issues.  For a similar J model your looking at $95 to 150K depending on the year. 

Many people have websites with pimped C, E and 231 models but it seems they have way more money in than they can ever get out? Can you buy and fly without spending like mad? Annuals and upgrades combined are $50K in some cases. - The short answer is...Yes and "It depends".  If you buy your plane for strictly utilitarian purposes and don't care about upgrades, fly the crap out of it and spend your cash on gas and required maintenance.  However most Mooney owners take pride in their birds and do perform upgrades, and most understand that they won't get all the invested money back upon resale.

Do the Rajays or Bullets affect resale value? - Often times turbo Mod-ed Mooneys do command a premium over a comparable NA model.

Are C and E models only good for 2 people? How happy are C and E owners relative to the stretched models? - C and E Mooneys can seat 4, as do all Mooney M20's.  If you plan on flying with 4 people alot then the added room of an F or J might be worth it.   Your best bet is to sit in the back of an E & F to see which one suits your needs better.  Know that "in general" the E tends to be a little faster (2 - 5 knots) than the F, so if you opt for the room, you don't get if for free. 

Are there any Mooney shops in Canada? If not is regular A&P, AME suitable? - Dont' know?  Check the Mooney Factory website for your nearest MSC

Has anyone bought in USA and imported to Canada? From Mooney Mart or All American? How hard is it? - I would avoid Mooney mart...but that's one mans opinion.  Importing question is one you might want to research on your own.  Check with Canada’s version of the FAA.  http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/menu.htm  I'm sure they have the information on line or a # to call to speak with an expert

Is appraisal necessary along with pre-buy? - Appraisal, not necessary, in fact probably a waist of money.  10 minutes spent looking at controller and trade a plane few times a month will tell you where the market is.  PRE-BUY is mandatory, unless you want to take chances with an expensive surprise or worse, your safety later.  Again, the first post in this thread covers pre-buy reasons and procedures.

Is 231 really that much faster given the cost difference? - Read the 201 v/s 231 thread

Is a 231 really a maintenance pig compared to the others? - Read the 201 v/s 231 thread

Hangars are prohibitive or non-existent where I live. Can a Mooney be maintained adequately with full a/c cover, realizing it is not optimal? - Yes, but your paint will fade, animal / insects can be a problem and if it hails you'll be sad.

Value wise I like the C and E models but feel the extra size of at least F is necessary. What is the realistic norm for entry price for good a/c and realistic cost to fly and operate? - Again, the first post in this thread covers alot of this..but if I'm hearing you correctly your not looking for a perfect beauty queen, just a solid well maintained M20.  For a well maintained workhorse E or F, plan on about $45-55K.  Understand at that price point you’re not going to get the latest Garmin glass panel, or fresh paint or nice new interior.  For that price you should be able to find a adequately maintained M20 that might not be pretty, well equipped or smell nice inside, but it'll get you there.

One word of caution...the lower on the scale you go the harder it'll be to find a plane that will give you good service and not cost more in the long run.  Buy the newest, nicest, best maintained plane you can afford. An additional $5-20K spent during the purchase, if done wisely, will be pennies on the dollar compared to getting a “basket case” for what seems like a sweet deal. Trust me; if the previous owner didn’t take care of it or won't agree to "reasonable" pre-purchase agreement conditions…walk away. Correction RUN AWAY!

 

I almost forgot...Insurance.  Dont' forget about that.  Call Duncan and get a quote so you'll know what that's going to cost.

Good luck with your search….

 

 

 

[TurboExec]

That was a really good post by George....I honestly don't think I could add anything to that without repeating something.  But I will say for the traveling you are talking about doing a turbo would help greatly.  I fly from FL to Wisconsin several times a year and having the turbo has allowed me to top weather systems that would have kept me on the ground in my old Cherokee.

[The-sky-captain]

I agree with the above comments especially about the advice of steering clear of Mooney Mart. Past posts will give you the various reasons from different members including myself. I got my insurance from AOPA and they beat the nearest quote by 600.00 per year. Good luck in your search!

[N207LS]

I agree with everything George said...  A couple of things to add though...  First, RUN AWAY from Mooney Mart (they did a annual two years ago and I was not happy! I'll explain in a PM if you wish).  I live less than 50 nm from KVNC and I won't go back.  Second, consider a G model as well (usually cheaper than an F) with the difference being a O-360 versus an IO-360.    I would reiterate my pionts that I mentioned in my earlier post.  I was in a similar situation and chose a well maintained G after looking at F and J models.  I agree that you will save $$$ with a pre-J model that is loaded with speed mods.  You will end up with almost J speeds and spend thousands less up front.  As far as the annuals go, I use an independant A&P/IA who happens to maintain several other Mooneys.  He is fantastic and is very thorough.  My first annual at Mooney Mart was over $7500 (was quoted $1500) and they patched my fuel tanks (poorly) as I just did a strip/reseal ($2000+) and replaced all 11 rubber donuts ($85 ea plus labor = $1800).  These would be two items that I would really look into before buying a used Mooney.  My last two annuals were both under $2000 each. 

Best of luck...

Aaron

[GeorgePerry]

I've heard lots of guys say how bad mooney mart and mooneyland are and the amounts they charge for "aircraft location fees" are just rediculous.  I've had experience with both and have not been impressed. 

If any perspective mooney buyer wants some help evaluating a plane, send me a PM.  I'll look at the online info, log book docuements and annual reciepts via email and give you my opinion for free.  If you live near the east coast of the US, I'd also be happy to go look at the bird with you, just cover my gas expenses.

[KSMooniac]

Lots of great comments & advice above.  I'll add that in lieu of a fancy appraisal, you should look in the MAPA Logs for Jimmy Garrison's evaluation tools for J & K models and the pre-J models.  He is likely the best resource for putting a current value on these planes.  If you are financing the plane, the lender might require a "formal" appraisal, or perhaps just compare something like Jimmy's spreadsheet & Vref or similar and call it good.

Bottom line advice I'll echo from George...buy the *best* example you can with a priority on solid airframe, regular use and a good maintenance history.  Paint, interior and avionics can be added/changed/redone at your leisure and as budget allows.  As always, buying a plane with most of what you ultimately want already done will be cheaper, especially with avionics.  I ended up stretching my budget quite a bit to reach up into a 201 b/c it was well maintained and quite upgraded.  My reward has been only one unexpected maintenance item...a gear motor that wore out on my watch.  I fixed my fuel tanks at Willmar, but knew going in I wouldn't have long until they needed to be done.   Otherwise, it has just been working great!  Good luck with your search!  Now is a great time to buy.

[avcheck]

Thanks to everyone for all the answers. Believe it or not I had read the MAPA articles and 201 v 231 before my post. When on boards I sometimes tend to repeat questions to ensure responders get all the goods in one spot to respond to. Plus I got timed out and had to redraft the entire set of questions, hence the idiot errors in it. Sorry about that.

Despite the errors, GeorgePerry is dialed in to what my considerations are. I want value, utility and something I can keep/use for a long time. The pretty factor is somewhat less important. Core IFR avionics is fine, preferably digital, and preferably a real AP instead of wing leveler, and I would buy a 496 for $2K in lieu of the 430/530 panel mount. Then I could do seats and paint if the core machine proved reliable.

After all the responses I believe a well maintained E or F will fit, or have to fit. Rajay would be bonus option if I could get it. And 231 is too much cash up front and maintenance. For me to buy 201 might result in a badly maintained dud when the F does most of what I need for less. E versus F comes to that back seat issue which I have yet to try. I also like fuel injection of the F. The G seems slower by a fair bit. In Canada I only see an E available now and it seems priced too high at $70K, and an F that has the tail number covered (red flag) and motor near TBO. So I need to get the import thing nailed down to increase the options.

I am a bit away from the hard search for the actual machine. I am secretly hoping the declining economy will result in some more significant price drops than I have seen to date. Not that I want the economy in the tank any further.

Rest assured I will be looking to take George up on the offer to review the prospective purchase info should that situation arise.

Thanks again. These aircraft do seem ideal compared to the typical RG that I have retract time on or other Cessna/Piper product in the same price range.

I have seen negative info on Mooney Mart and Mooneyland but only good stuff on All American and Jimmy Garrison. If any posters have any direct experience, I'd love to hear it.

My car is acting up so I am off to that board now.

Ciao!

 

 

 

 

[The-sky-captain]

Avcheck-

Jimmy Garrison is a stand up and honest guy that knows his Mooneys. I had a plane under contract to purchase from him in June and he always returned phone calls and emails. The only "hitch" I had with him was that his ferry pilot didn't put enough fuel in the plane when they flew it here for the pre buy and it ended up in a field 5 miles north of the runway totaled. It had a new engine and new paint and was a sad site to see the beautiful bird crumpled in the field.