Missing Logbooks

[Greg_D]

I'm curious for folk's opinions on how much a missing airframe logbook should impact the selling price of an airplane. There is paperwork to show that an annual inspection has been complied with in the form of a shop work order as well as annual entries in the complete propeller and engine logbooks.

[rbridges]

I guess it depends on how old the plane is and what time point is missing. I know it will have some impact on value b/c it leaves the owner with a bunch of unknowns.

[jfdez]

I have hear and seen as much as 30%, but with complete engine and prop logbooks, should not be that high. Big issues to be conserned with would be damage that did not involve engine and prop and AD/SB compliance.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I wouldn't be as concerned if there was a small window of time where the logs were missing, but it could be proven through invoices that the airplane was flying frequently.

[1964-M20E]

Check 337s they should have all major repairs but some could be missing. It depends on how old the missing documentation is the older docs probably would have less effect on the value. If you are missing a lot of recent stuff I would think that would cause more fo a deduct in value. Also what is the reson for the missing documents?

[Sabremech]

Mine is a 66 M20C that is missing the first 5 years worth of entries. In my opinion it didn't have any effect on the vlaue as most of that maintenance has been superseded. You can order a CD from the FAA in OKC that should have the information such as 337's that were submitted over the life of the aircraft. As with damage history, it might mean something to one person and nothing to another. It's not cut and dry.

David Staffeldt

N2652W

[gregwatts]

The airframe logbooks generally tell the majority of the history of an aircraft. I guess it would depend on how much of that "history" is missing. One book from 40 years ago would .........is one thing. Several books spanning a couple decades..............different. If it is a recent book, it may be able to be reconstructed by the shop that did all the work.

As a buyer......I would really have to beat up the seller......as I will have to consider what the resale will mean to me.

My opinion only!

[KSMooniac]

The original owner of my plane lost the first log books in a flood, but was able to recreate the entire history with copies of work orders from the shops, and these included much more detail than the typical log book entries. The banker put up a red flag during my purchase when hearing about the missing logs, but once he saw the big file full of detail he said that was more than satisfactory.

[Greg_D]

Thanks for the replies. In the particular plane I'm talking about, the entire airframe logbook is missing. It was there at some point, because I've seen photocopied entries from it. It's just somehow been "misplaced". I don't have a huge problem with that, per se, but the value of the airplane is less without the logbook. I was just curious what the consensus was on how much that might be.

[John Pleisse]

I would avoid an a/c with significant logbook history missing. That being said, pre J's through J's an early K's are a $90-115K investment, top end, less for pre J's. As such, a 30-45% discount is not unheard of for missing logs, even partial history. This is very significant, hedging your bet well and if you are buying your only and last airplane, go for it. I am still looking for that 1986 TSE with 200 TT hours, no damage, complete logs, sitting in a barn somewhere for sale for $45k. Let me know if you find it. I'll spot ya $10k.

[N33GG]

Like most things, it depends.

How old is the aircraft, how much of the logs are missing, how much are you paying for the plane, what is your intent with the aircraft...etc. If you are buying for a parts basket, probably not a big deal. Buying a real low cost basic plane, not as big of a deal. Buying a high dollar high end aircraft with major gaps in the logs, maybe a bigger deal. For my peace of mind, logs not only need to be complete, but convincing as well. Having looked at a lot of logs over the years, some of them, although "complete", have not left me comfortable. And frankly, IMHO, 337's are not reliable for reporting all damage and mod history (although in theory they should). Logs, and preferably complete logs, are pretty important to me. And a lack thereof would significantly impact the price and in fact my decision on purchase of most any aircraft I intended to fly.

As they say, you pays your money, and you takes your chances! Be careful...

[29-0363]

Missing logbooks can mean a couple of things.

(1) The airplane has a history that the seller does not want you to know about or,

(2) They are genuinely lost/missing/destroyed.

Either way the value is substantially diminished by the missing logs and the price must be adjusted for the risk you will be taking. You need to factor in the worst case scenario, even though it might seem to be good deal.

Now imagine it's you trying to sell that same airplane in five years time. An well informed buyer will baulk at the lack of history and make a low-ball offer in the knowledge that it's a difficult airplane for you to sell. An airplane in good condition with complete logbook history is hard to sell at the best of times.

Got the picture?

[Greg_D]

Wow, this place is turning into the Red Board? I understand the issues with missing logbooks. I've owned 6 airplanes over the years. I was just curious what hit on airplane value the missing records might cause. Aircraft prices have dropped significantly over the last few years. I was just wondering if missing logbooks still carried the same percentage hit these days.

[carusoam]

Is it possible to take it to an MSC and pay for an inspection with the soul purpose of identifying that is a true Mooney through and through and not an undocumented assembly of parts Franken plane built by anyone?

It won't take much to determine a Frakenplane. But proving it is original, is an inspection of every component and a few fasteners.

The MSC documented plane had more value to me when I bought mine. I once took an M20C to an MSC, and they offered to bring it up to spec for about $15-20k. A good investment if I were to keep it.

I spent that Mooney's money on this M20R instead...

Best regards,

-a-

[John Pleisse]

Thanks for the replies. In the particular plane I'm talking about, the entire airframe logbook is missing. It was there at some point, because I've seen photocopied entries from it. It's just somehow been "misplaced". I don't have a huge problem with that, per se, but the value of the airplane is less without the logbook. I was just curious what the consensus was on how much that might be.

Often, bank sale and reposessed a/c are without log books. Some people buy a bank sale plane for dirt, put a new engine in, fly off 500 hours, then try to flip it. I have heard of auctioneers holding-out a reposessed a/c without log books. A typical buyer would win the bid and get a 1965 C model (hypothetical) for $15k. They would then side step the bank, find the previous owner and offer them a cash sum for the previously unrelinguished logbooks. Point being, sometimes the title chain can shed as much light at the FAA file/ 337's.

[fantom]

Yes....I've reported our new visitor

[Lionudakis]

Possibly off topic,but in line with discussion as a suggestion; When I bought mine I took pics of every piece of paper / logpage / invoice / and groups of 8130 tags in chronological order, by log types, saved the files in multiple places, and emailed to myself and saved in a file for access from anywhere or for quick forwarding down the road, or in the even they are lost or destroyed.

[Seth]

Possibly off topic,but in line with discussion as a suggestion; When I bought mine I took pics of every piece of paper / logpage / invoice / and groups of 8130 tags in chronological order, by log types, saved the files in multiple places, and emailed to myself and saved in a file for access from anywhere or for quick forwarding down the road, or in the even they are lost or destroyed.

That is a good idea. I will do that as soon as I get my logbooks back from the annual. I did that for my F model, but not yet for the Missile. Speaking of which, my F model did not have the very first log book. It was a 1966 F, one of the four 1966 F models, and the first logbook unfortunatly did not carry itself to my aircraft. At purchase, I'd say I bought it about 25 to 30 percent below market value in summer - just before the market crashed. The seller wanted out and I think needed the sale as well, but that's what we agreed upon. When I sold it in Summer 2011, and I did put a lot into that aicraft, 500 hours later and after the drop in aircraft values as a whole, I sold it for $3000 less than what I bought it for, which I think was fair. The logs were complete for 30-35 years after that first book (late 70s to present) but the first 10 years were missing.

Basically, make sure you buy it knowing that when you sell it there will be a discount invovled - factor that in now.

The Missile has VERY complete logs.

-Seth

[jetdriven]

Missing logs have several problems to a buyer (and the buyer of your plane with missing logs). One, if the first one is missing, there is no way to verify total hours. The plane may have been used 10K hours in the first ten years and there is no way to verify that. If you have complete engine logs and the factory paperwork showing that the current engine on the aircraft is the one that is currently installed is the same serial number, it mitigates that. Another is the uncetainty that the aircraft was damaged and there is no record of that.

AD's can be shown in compliance and complete work orders can go a long way to minimize the impact of missing logs, but it still is going to affect the value of the airplane by 20-50%. The worst is a plane built in 1977 with every log lost before 2009 due to being misplaed in a move, a hangar fire, A&P misplaced or dispute over a bill, or a pissed-off ex-wife. Our mechanic has copies of the logs in a binder and we bring the logs to the hangar to sig the annual. Then they go back to the safe. A few year gap substantiated with complete work orders could be overcome with minimal damage, however.

Interestingly the logs on our plane were a problem when we were shopping. I took one look and said "hell no, that plane is worthless". The logs from 2001 (rebuilt from a gear-up and maintained by the same shop since then) were simply stamped "This aircraft was repaired/inspected according to FARs and approved for return to service" with zero details. I said "pass" but my smart wife called the shop in Tulsa and they had copies of all ten years or work orders. Parts, labor, hours, part numbers, all of it was on those work orders. In our case, the logs only establish a link to the work orders, which actually are the real documentation for those years. In our case, losing the work orders is as bad or worse than losing that book.

Keep the logs at your house in a fireproof safe or in a safe deposit box at a bank. Make compelte copies of every page, work order, parts invoice, and photos in a separate, safe location. Once a year minimum, copy eveythign and add it to these duplicates. We do this, and if the logs were lost, we would pay 3 or 5 grand for that mistake but we have copies of every log page, every invoice and work order from 2001, every flight we have ever made in it, and every reciept we have ever spent. The new owner of our plane is going to get more information than they ever wished for.

[John Pursell]

Also keep in mind that while you may not feel that it's a big deal, it will hamper your efforts to sell the plane in the future.

[Alan Fox]

In todays market , It will be almost impossible to resell if the logs are missing , if one book is missing , it will hurt , but not as much......When I sold my last mooney , it was missing one airframe book and I think I sold about 10% less than market , I feel I was lucky to find an understanding buyer........

[TTaylor]

Back to the original question. I am in the process of buying a plane that has missing logs. I discounted the price of the plane 60% for all logs missing. For just one and only part of the time it may be as little as 10%. As others have said the big issue will be when you want to sell, how much of a discount will you have to give for the missing logs?

[carusoam]

Who is going to perform the PPI?

What extent of a PPI do you intend to have done?

Are you protecting your capital, or hoping for the best?

Do you know the seller?

Why are the logs missing?

These are the questions I would be asking, because reputable Mooney logs don't usually go missing accidentally....

-a-

[gregwatts]

Whatever discount you are going to take......you can expect another buyer to want to take.

[Alan Fox]

Who is going to perform the PPI?

What extent of a PPI do you intend to have done?

Are you protecting your capital, or hoping for the best?

Do you know the seller?

Why are the logs missing?

These are the questions I would be asking, because reputable Mooney logs don't usually go missing accidentally....

-a-

Logbooks get lost ....That is usually the case......On my last mooney , the shop lost the logbook...