carusoam Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 74795, Did you mean one piece windshield or 201 style? The old M20C windshield is vertical and is missing the aerodynamics of the more sloped 201. There is a one piece improvement that makes looking out/at better, not too expensive. Or did I miss the point? Best regards, -a- Quote
Alan Fox Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 The one piece is a cheap option , it takes out the huge vertical center piece from the middle , and improves forward visibility , improved safety from better visibility , Although the old design is not as sloped , it is far from "Vertical" , The benefit from the slope is negated by the increased drag , more surface area equals more drag..... It looks cool , but you lose most of the access to the instruments and avionics.....The Beech owners groups did tests on the beech speed slope windshields and no increase in speed ..... But they look great...... I had a B model I did like 8 speed mods to , and netted about 8 MPH , 4 or five were from the cowl closure, and in hind sight , It would have been the only one wort doing.... Quote
carusoam Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 V tail vs traditional tail friction...hmmmmm? Sorry missed your point.. Frictional characteristics of plexiglas....? -a- Quote
Alan Fox Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 V tail vs traditional tail friction...hmmmmm? Sorry missed your point.. Frictional characteristics of plexiglas....? -a- V tail is faster because there is less surface area in the two tail surfaces verses the three surfaces , There is substantially more surface area to a 201 type windshield than a 20C type windshield , hence more more surface area = More parasitic drag..... Quote
danb35 Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 There is substantially more surface area to a 201 type windshield than a 20C type windshield , hence more more surface area = More parasitic drag..... OTOH, there's less surface area in the fuselage. And surface area is far from the only factor in determining drag. The plexiglass is probably smoother as well, thus less drag per unit of surface area. And certainly the shape plays a role. Quote
jetdriven Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 V tail is faster because there is less surface area in the two tail surfaces verses the three surfaces , There is substantially more surface area to a 201 type windshield than a 20C type windshield , hence more more surface area = More parasitic drag..... I have heard claims the V-tail is faster than an identically-equipped F33. Beech always claimed 2 MPH but by 1980, Beech finally published the same cruise numbers for both. The V-tail has two surfaces instead of 3, but the two surfaces are correspondingly larger and the drag is the same. I am sticking with the 3 MPH claim on the 201 windshield and the dramatic appearance and resale factor. Quote
Hank Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Don't forget the improved visibility from inside the cockpit, since the 201 windshield goes several inches further up at the top. Lots of sheetmetal work to be done. 1 Quote
Alan Fox Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 I have heard claims the V-tail is faster than an identically-equipped F33. Beech always claimed 2 MPH but by 1980, Beech finally published the same cruise numbers for both. The V-tail has two surfaces instead of 3, but the two surfaces are correspondingly larger and the drag is the same. I am sticking with the 3 MPH claim on the 201 windshield and the dramatic appearance and resale factor. All I know is that my S35 cruises at 165 knots indicated 2500 msl at 16gph and carries 1270 useful load....My friends A36 with 15 more HP burns 17 and indicates about 155 knots 2500 msl , My Mooney "E" indicates about 135 Knots 2500 MSL and burns a little more than 10 gph... Quote
carusoam Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Generally outspeaking... I'm going with Mooneys are faster. Big engines are better. New planes have more capable instrument panels. (except a few modified to better than new) New Mooneys with big engines, turbochargers and matching E-trade account, are the best. I'd get a talking baby too. Who claimed they paid for their Mooney with proceeds from stock options? I want to talk to you! In case you can't tell, this is in jest. Excluding that last point...send me a PM. I am happy with the move from M20C to M20R. I had the one piece windshield, not 201. I liked the access behind the panel as well. The best mod in this regard, is an electric OAT gage, not through the windshield OEM type. It is accurate, easy to read, does not promote cracking, doesn't vibrate like crazy. M20TN can stay on my wish list. Best regards just stirring the pot, -a- Quote
jetdriven Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 All I know is that my S35 cruises at 165 knots indicated 2500 msl at 16gph and carries 1270 useful load....My friends A36 with 15 more HP burns 17 and indicates about 155 knots 2500 msl , My Mooney "E" indicates about 135 Knots 2500 MSL and burns a little more than 10 gph... Right, but an apples-to-apples comparison is F33 to V35. The A36 is longer, heavier, and more drag. Quote
carusoam Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Wow... Is that true? Not knowing much about beeches... I didn't expect to be schooled on the finer points of Beechcraft ownership at MooneySpace. I feel better now. ROP or LOP, MY Mooney is faster and burns less at the same time, making it economical enough for me. Don't get me wrong, I like the Beech, but not it's economics, V-Tail or not. Thanks? -a- Quote
flight2000 Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 All I know is that my S35 cruises at 165 knots indicated 2500 msl at 16gph and carries 1270 useful load....My friends A36 with 15 more HP burns 17 and indicates about 155 knots 2500 msl , My Mooney "E" indicates about 135 Knots 2500 MSL and burns a little more than 10 gph... Wow, you have a really slow E model if that is all your getting. What MP and RPM were you running? If I'm running 25 squared, I usually see 150 KIAS at that altitude. I usually get 139 KIAS up in the 8-10K range. I easily picked up an extra 3-5 mph with my 201 windshield. Yes, it makes a difference. Quote
Alan Fox Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Than I must have a slow E 150 indicated sounds very fast for an E.... Quote
flight2000 Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 ...may sound fast but that is normal ops for my bird. Some have questioned my airspeed indicator being out of calibration, but it was certified in 2010 and was spot on. Did the GPS runs to verify it as well. Heading towards Higginsville, MO on a very cold winter morning at 3.5K (3248F was before I changed the tail number): http://www.67m20e.co...IG/IMG_6896.JPG Coming back from Denver at 11K: http://www.67m20e.co...LY/IMG_0931.JPG Coming back from Chicago at 6K: http://www.67m20e.co...PA/P7250124.JPG Those are all from the same aircraft, just in different phases of the panel make-over... Quote
Hank Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 We can all cherry-pick data to support any air/ground speed that we want. I have photos showing my C making 183 knots over the ground headed south to Charlotte once; when I was topping the hills between Greenville and Knoxville at 10K indicating roughly the same airspeed but groundspeed bottomed out at 68 knots, I did not take any pictures. Normal everday flights are better used for discussion. I went 1300+ nm west at an average of 127 knots, and returned at an average of 151 knots, including takeoffs, climbs, descents and landings. Don't ask me what my indicated speed was, or the groundspeed during cruise, I was too busy sightseeing and vacationing for three days in each direction. I typically indicate 125-130 knots at 6-9K, and groundspeed is whatever the wind makes it. Book values are 160-165 mph for my plane, so I'm happy. The guppy mouth closure and 201-windshield both help; I've been told the 3-blade on the nose hurts. Either way, I get where I'm going, I can see out the front, and my OAT sensor is not in the way. Quote
flight2000 Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 I didn't cherry pick those just because, I picked them to show my indicated airspeeds, which he inferred were higher than they should have been for an E. I made no mention of groundspeeds in my post and fully understand block speeds. Quote
Hank Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 Guess I should have looked at the pictures, I responded inappropriately. Your yellow is pretty low--mine starts at 175 MPH, and even on normal descents I rarely indicate 170. Just some of the joys of having so many models. Typical 3000 msl, 23/2300, I'll indicate ~130 MPH. Quote
garyoporter Posted April 9, 2018 Report Posted April 9, 2018 i have to agree. i have flown several mooneys for test flights and delivery and I flew a 70s f model with every mod done. my 67 f flew the same with no mods. over all speed difference was negligible. not worth all the money spent and the guys that worked on them just laugh at the moneys spent. if i want to go faster Ill get another plane. I love my mooney but if adding $10k gets me 6 knots ill buy a faster plane instead. Quote
BKlott Posted April 10, 2018 Report Posted April 10, 2018 On 9/12/2012 at 11:14 AM, jetdriven said: I have heard claims the V-tail is faster than an identically-equipped F33. Beech always claimed 2 MPH but by 1980, Beech finally published the same cruise numbers for both. The V-tail has two surfaces instead of 3, but the two surfaces are correspondingly larger and the drag is the same. I am sticking with the 3 MPH claim on the 201 windshield and the dramatic appearance and resale factor. Not so much for those of us who prefer the original appearance of the airplane. 1 Quote
Andy95W Posted April 10, 2018 Report Posted April 10, 2018 I thought we'd settled this once and for all back in 2012? 1 2 Quote
EricJ Posted April 10, 2018 Report Posted April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, David Herman said: Alan, Me thinks that analogy is flawed sir ... That larger surface area of the 201 Windshield creates a more aerodynamic angle ... or shape of the fuselage... and less parasitic drag ... correct? I would counter that analogy with one from the progression of automobile shape and design. The older cars had smaller windshields with steeper slopes and sunken headlights that were completely non aerodynamic ... while the newer designs have larger windshields with less slope ... and the headlights are now integrated into the shape of the vehicle. Go no further than looking at the differences in the same items from the M20F to the M20J ... and ask yourself which has more parasitic drag ...??? (the differences in gear doors are another consideration of the same thought.) The minimum surface area shape is a sphere, so if that were the driving consideration we'd be flying around in beach balls with wings. Fluid dynamics is pretty complicated and somewhat non-linear, so many simplifying assumptions are risky. I think the 201 windscreen likely reduces drag overall, despite having a bit more area. Quote
lithium366 Posted August 9, 2021 Report Posted August 9, 2021 Just read this thread and didn’t found an answer to an original question: what is involved in installing a one piece windshield. Anyone? Quote
mike20papa Posted August 9, 2021 Report Posted August 9, 2021 (edited) Alan, I couldn't agree more! I think of how much time it takes to do any behind the panel work with that stupid 201 windshield in place vs the 20 seconds you might/might not have gained from from "A to B" flying. Like give me the 201 VAX - F'n go figure?! Michael Angelo sculpted "David" Are you like wise "in the mood"? If you have no talent with forming metal, wood, etc. " fo' get about it." The stock windshield is 3/16" ( i think I remember) the one piece is thicker - at least what I installed .. these airplanes are built to a very close tolerance. To fit the new windshield into the airframe requires a lot trial and ( no error) fitting. If you can imagine putting the windshield in place .. marking, trimming, replacing, marking, trimming, re fitting a dozen or so times then maybe you can get an idea of what's involved. Also, I dimpled the cabin roof alumn. and counter sunk the plastic because I just couldn't get enough... Research the sealant. I wouldn't "glue" the windshield in place. And No, I won't tell you what I used, because ... I hope this delves into the "what's involved" question. Edited August 10, 2021 by mike20papa 1 Quote
carusoam Posted August 10, 2021 Report Posted August 10, 2021 5 hours ago, lithium366 said: Just read this thread and didn’t found an answer to an original question: what is involved in installing a one piece windshield. Anyone? There is a question asked near the top…. Which one piece windshield? 1) There is a one piece that improves vision by removing the center connection… and changes nothing else… 2) There is the improved version… 201 style that changes a lot of sheet metal… and improves many things…. The low cost option requires taking off a trim piece at the bottom and fitting in a new windshield… replacing the trim piece is probably necessary… paint to match Going with a thicker windshield… adds to the fitting challenges… where time is money… What objective are you going after? Improving a forever-plane? or, My windshield is totally scratched, can’t see through it when the sun shines in…. Lowest cost replacement? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
lithium366 Posted August 10, 2021 Report Posted August 10, 2021 8 hours ago, carusoam said: There is a question asked near the top…. Which one piece windshield? 1) There is a one piece that improves vision by removing the center connection… and changes nothing else… 2) There is the improved version… 201 style that changes a lot of sheet metal… and improves many things…. The low cost option requires taking off a trim piece at the bottom and fitting in a new windshield… replacing the trim piece is probably necessary… paint to match Going with a thicker windshield… adds to the fitting challenges… where time is money… What objective are you going after? Improving a forever-plane? or, My windshield is totally scratched, can’t see through it when the sun shines in…. Lowest cost replacement? Best regards, -a- Thank you, Antony! My reasons: looks and fix water leaks. Also I am going to repaint an airplane soon so color to match is not a problem 1 Quote
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