Buyer's agent?

[dkkim73]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I hope the seller gets the asking price, but regardless of the amount spent on paint, panel, engine, and interior, there is a limit to what can be recovered.  I suspect this J has exceeded that limit.

I could see spending for things on my plane because I wanted them, knowing I wouldn't get the money back out necessarily. I like to tell myself that most of it is easily-understood value, but I'm told it's often not intuitive. 

People warn all the time that avionics, even if everyone likes the choices, they'll never pay the delta you paid to put in that G3X in a Piper Cub. 

[dkkim73]

3 hours ago, jordanschooler said:

I totally agree, and this is part of why I want to buy. 

And I don't think you need to learn it all at once. 
The purchase is a big financial risk if there are Black Swans. Ok, there will always be Black Cygnets, but you don't want a giant Black Swan sitting in your living room the day after your purchase... "Hi Dave, do you have any food?"

So getting lots of help up-front is smart. 

I'm shocked how much I've learned in the 2 yrs since purchase. About teeny weeny little esoteric things. Like screws on alternate air doors...

[MikeOH]

@jordanschooler

With respect to this particular aircraft, IMHO, it is an overpriced unicorn.  Nothing wrong with unique custom paint if that is what you like, but consider when it comes time to sell your market is going to be very much smaller.  There's a reason this plane has sat for two years; it's too equipped and unique for its price point.

Also, look at how much it's actually been flown over the last two years.  My guess is not very much; that breaks my cardinal rule: regardless of what you buy, recent and continuous use is a very good indicator of how reliable the plane is going to be.

Finally, if I wanted to spend that kind of money I would be looking at Ovations

[exM20K]

5 hours ago, jordanschooler said:

One question I have for people is whether this price is reasonable: https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/249270527/1979-mooney-m20j-piston-single-aircraft

Obviously it has a lot of upgrades and looks amazing. But I see multiple Ovations and Ks for less. Then again probably most who put so much into upgrades aren't selling quickly. 

I saw this plane IRL 2 weeks ago after my bad mag adventure; it was in the MX hangar for something. Maybe they are changing out the rusty throttle control.  At a market price for a glass, early 201: Meh.  At Ovation $: pass. The avionics are sweet, but at some point you're at the $500 saddle on a $50 horse level.

Check with an aircraft lender and see if they'd finance it.  Whether or not you will pay cash, if they're a "no,"  selling will be more difficult. 

-dan

[IvanP]

Nice J...but still a J with engine past its half-life for Bravo or Ovation price. Lot of effort and money went into this plane for sure, but is seem a bit overpriced to me even with all the gadgets and very nice interior.   

[ArtVandelay]

I have a 1980 M20J which is equipped at least as well as that one with great paint and interior and I had to provide all the details and the estimated value from Jimmy's valuation guide to get them to go for $185K.

I didn’t have to do anything special other than a short paragraph describing my 78J to be insured for $170k…maybe I should ask for more.
OP:
Rough estimate a paint job, all new glass panel, overhauled engine & prop, and updated interior will cost you about $175k. So that’s probably what the seller is thinking.
But you never get all the money back from upgrading and then you have to like the sellers choices….yellow, not for me. Field overhaul, no thanks, I want a shop with a good reputation. What about the prop? The devil is in the details.

[ArtVandelay]

the avionics and the interior make this airplane unusual, Jimmy Garrison at GMAXAmerican is the best person to determine value, others will chime in regarding a pre purchase inspection in Kentucky

Also looks like it has only 1 nav/com? I would consider a 2nd nav/com be required, especially at that price point.
And they didn’t remove the ram air? If you’re going to paint an earlier J, remove the ram air like they did in the later years.
UL is a bit low, about 100lbs.

[LANCECASPER]

27 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Also looks like it has only 1 nav/com? I would consider a 2nd nav/com be required, especially at that price point.
And they didn’t remove the ram air? If you’re going to paint an earlier J, remove the ram air like they did in the later years.
UL is a bit low, about 100lbs.

The G3X has a remote com that you select from the touch screen. Maybe remote nav too?

[ArtVandelay]

The G3X has a remote com that you select from the touch screen. Maybe remote nav too?

My G3X with second nav/com, displayed on top right. Com1 on top left.


and then, theirs, com2 and nav 1.



Could be just how they configured the status bar?

[PeterRus]

15 hours ago, jordanschooler said:

One question I have for people is whether this price is reasonable: https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/249270527/1979-mooney-m20j-piston-single-aircraft

Obviously it has a lot of upgrades and looks amazing. But I see multiple Ovations and Ks for less. Then again probably most who put so much into upgrades aren't selling quickly. 

This one has been popping up for sale for a few years now at rather high price. I would not compare K v J but an Ovation is a reasonable option for a J buyer. 

[jordanschooler]

1 hour ago, PeterRus said:

This one has been popping up for sale for a few years now at rather high price. I would not compare K v J but an Ovation is a reasonable option for a J buyer. 

I think I'm convinced at this point that one is not a wise choice. Why do you say that about the K vs J? 

[Jackk]

12 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@jordanschooler

…

Also, look at how much it's actually been flown over the last two years.  My guess is not very much; that breaks my cardinal rule: regardless of what you buy, recent and continuous use is a very good indicator of how reliable the plane is going to be.

Finally, if I wanted to spend that kind of money I would be looking at Ovations

 People say this but don’t really mean it, otherwise all the high dollar planes would be 10,000hr planes and the planes with <8,000hrs would be bargain basement prices.

 

 Also not flying much ain’t the thing some make it out to be, shy of the plane sitting on the ramp by the beach in S FL or something.

 

 A couple tips on buying planes 

 

I like to slightly modify this agreement 

https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/-/media/files/pps/aopa-legal-services-plan--sample-aircraft-purchasesales-agreement2018-01.pdf?la=en&hash=9803EE85E7AC875DC797DBFDE148E8DB

Two, order the FAA CD, this will show liens, 337s, etc, 

https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/
 

Three, search on aviationdb and NTSB CAROL by BOTH N number and serial number for any accidents etc, damage history isn’t the end of the world, and most of the GA fleet you ether have documented damage history or it just wasn’t documented, or wasn’t documented clearly.

 If it got bent and it was a long time ago and many many hours ago, the prebuy does a deep dive into that area and it was fixed and documented right, no big deal

 That said many new buyers ignorantly compare planes to the poorly maintained car they drive and trade in every few years, so I’d still use it as a leverage point to knock some cash off

 

Four go fly it with the owner, this is as much about making sure everything works, the plane is in good trim, hits book numbers etc, as it is seeing how it’s last owner flew it.

 

Finally get a pre buy from a good IA who is obviously independent from the seller. A PREBUY SHOULD BE THE MOST IN-DEPTH INSPECTION YOU EVER DO ON THE PLANE.

 It’s not just about airworthy, unless the seller states otherwise, we are inspecting not only against what is airworthy, but the stated condition in the add.  These always end in a annual sign off if I buy as it far exceeds a annual inspection   
 

Money wise I normally just did a bank transfer, filled out a few copies of 8050-1 8050-2 (FAA has PDFs), for price I always put “$1 & OVC”  if all the above went well, shake hands, also ask if they have anything else in their hangar for the plane, EVERY time I’ve bought a plane there’s always been a box of spares or other goodies in some corner I end up getting too.

 

Last airplanes travel from state to state like cars go down the block, take a minute to think of which state you’re going to put down on the registration, fly-away states or a thing 

https://natlawreview.com/article/legal-insight-implications-lessor-and-fly-away-state-tax-exemptions-associated

Edited November 20 by Jackk

[Fritz1]

one of the first things to do if really interested is to get the complete FAA file, you can buy it from aerospace reports in Oklahoma for about $100, all 337s, previous owners, liens, does not tell you the amount, but if there is one, some airplanes offered for sale are upside down on a loan, the bank will not let the airplane go below that loan amount, the seller may or may not tell you what that loan amount is, upside down airplanes are sold by the bank to a broker that has a deal with the bank if and when the owner defaults on the loan, you cannot buy them from the bank, takes one phone call to the seller to figure this out, happened to me once spent lots of time on inspection only to find out that loan exceeded the amount that I was ready to pay and the owner had noting to kick in to make up for the difference

[Fly Boomer]

12 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Also, look at how much it's actually been flown over the last two years.

And, in a possibly related question, I wonder why it needed a major overhaul with only 1300 on the factory engine.

[TangoTango]

27 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

one of the first things to do if really interested is to get the complete FAA file, you can buy it from aerospace reports in Oklahoma for about $100, all 337s, previous owners, liens

Aerospace Reports has a great title and escrow service, but if @jordanschooler is just trying to evaluate options they can order the report directly from the FAA here: Aircraft Registration | Federal Aviation Administration. I ordered the $10 CD for a couple aircraft before I decided on one I liked the history of, then I got Aerospace Reports involved once an offer was accepted and we were ready to go into escrow.

[Mufflerbearing]

You buy the prior owner, not the plane.  You can tell a lot about how the plane has been treated by understanding the owner.  If the plane has been taken care of by open checkbook, that is much different than someone that always did the basic minimum on maintenance.

[Jackk]

4 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said:

You buy the prior owner, not the plane.  You can tell a lot about how the plane has been treated by understanding the owner.  If the plane has been taken care of by open checkbook, that is much different than someone that always did the basic minimum on maintenance.

Open check book doesn’t make for a good plane anymore than putting 4 random attitude indicators makes for a good instrument panel lol

[Fly Boomer]

54 minutes ago, Jackk said:

take a minute to think of which state you’re going to put down on the registration, fly-away states or a thing 

Fly-Away seems to be about avoiding sales tax.  Problem is that most states have enacted a use tax that is equal to what the sales tax would have been -- they don't care where you bought the airplane.

[Jackk]

12 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Fly-Away seems to be about avoiding sales tax.  Problem is that most states have enacted a use tax that is equal to what the sales tax would have been -- they don't care where you bought the airplane.

 Indeed

 

One should also know how the system works and opt to which state you register the plane in, planes go from state to state quite often in the normal use and definitions differ by state. We have a lot of states

[201Mooniac]

10 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I didn’t have to do anything special other than a short paragraph describing my 78J to be insured for $170k…maybe I should ask for more.
 

They were good at $175K but when I asked for $185K they wanted justification.  I'm not sure if they are seeing people over insure or what but it was the first time in 30 years of ownership I had to do that.

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, jordanschooler said:

I think I'm convinced at this point that one is not a wise choice. Why do you say that about the K vs J? 

Uh oh. Now you done it. 
Definitely a turbo

And I thought you were explicitly looking at normally-aspirated planes...

With a turbo, the bang-for-buck could be higher for the right K vs. a turbo 6-cylinder. There's a lot of variation out there to wade through. 

 

[Fly Boomer]

30 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

With a turbo, the bang-for-buck could be higher for the right K vs. a turbo 6-cylinder.

All Ks are turbo 6-cylinder.

[PeterRus]

3 hours ago, jordanschooler said:

... Why do you say that about the K vs J? 

I am sure there are more knowledgeable and experienced people here will chime in, but here is my opinion...

1. turbo shines at altitude... that will require oxygen...

2. shorter TBO and more parts to manage for a turbo engine, 6-cyl is more expensive to maintain, 6-cyl turbo is even more expensive

3. turbo engine management requires more attention (why don't we have FADECs everywhere?)

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

All Ks are turbo 6-cylinder.

I stand corrected! Confusing the displacement vs. cylinder count. Thank you. 

[Mufflerbearing]

8 hours ago, Jackk said:

Open check book doesn’t make for a good plane anymore than putting 4 random attitude indicators makes for a good instrument panel lol

In my experience, buying the buyer is more important than buying the plane.  There are many stories here of buying just the plane and even doing what they thought was a thorough PPI only to have the plane down for years getting major things fixed that were either not disclosed or purposely overlooked so the pretty plane could be sold.