M20E Valuation

[Greg_D]

I'm trying to justify in my mind purchasing a sweet, fully loaded M20E.  I know there's a point of diminishing returns when upgrading the avionics on an older airplane like this, but I was curious what others thought the upper end of the price range a knowledgable buyer would stretch to.  I can post a picture of the panel if it would help.  And the airframe has pretty much all of the mods available (201 cowling, windshield, spinner, etc.).

[NickM20F]

I have an M20F with a fully loaded panel i bought recently for about 140k. GFC 500, dual G5s, GNX 375, JPI 900, Aera 660, lot time engine, and pretty much all the speed mods you can get as well. For the most part the only other thing I would want to upgrade is the interior, which is in decent shape but could use some work. 

I think it would be hard to spend more than that on an F lol. I'm happy with my purchase,  but can't say if I'm the most knowledgeable buyer in the world. I think there's a lot of value in buying something with the panel already done. Probably cheaper to buy into a nice panel vs put one in on older planes like this. That being said i doubt many people would go higher than that on an older Mooney. 

[Greg_D]

27 minutes ago, NickM20F said:

I have an M20F with a fully loaded panel i bought recently for about 140k. GFC 500, dual G5s, GNX 375, JPI 900, Aera 660, lot time engine, and pretty much all the speed mods you can get as well. For the most part the only other thing I would want to upgrade is the interior, which is in decent shape but could use some work. 

I think it would be hard to spend more than that on an F lol. I'm happy with my purchase,  but can't say if I'm the most knowledgeable buyer in the world. I think there's a lot of value in buying something with the panel already done. Probably cheaper to buy into a nice panel vs put one in on older planes like this. That being said i doubt many people would go higher than that on an older Mooney. 

If this was an F model, it would be a lot easier to justify.  The E that I'm looking at has a GFC500, 3 GI275s, GTN 750xi, EDM 900, GNC 215, GYX 345, Ceis Fuel senders, fuel bladders, Plane Power alternator, SkyTech Starter, Dual Electronic mags, Hartzell Top Prop, plus lots of other goodies.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Greg_D said:

If this was an F model, it would be a lot easier to justify.  The E that I'm looking at has a GFC500, 3 GI275s, GTN 750xi, EDM 900, GNC 215, GYX 345, Ceis Fuel senders, fuel bladders, Plane Power alternator, SkyTech Starter, Dual Electronic mags, Hartzell Top Prop, plus lots of other goodies.

Dual e mags?  Did they do the new dual Surefly STC with a dedicated electrical backup? I like the surefly, but two isn’t necessarily better than one…

[Echo]

There are M20E's that have the exterior and interior J mods done.  They are priced in J territory which always makes me wonder what they get when finally sold?  I would never pay J money for a modded E OR F personally, but I am sure some do.  My plane has majority of J mods (OFF of a J) Cowl, Wingtips, Dorsal, Windshield, brake reversal, but it does NOT have a J panel.  It's upgraded with Aspen, but has functioning Brittain with Brittain Accu-flite heading bug.  I paid 85k with a lycoming new engine (dual bendix mags with 500 hours).  If I put a panel mounted Garmin and GFC I would be into J money.  NOT doing that, but I would love that kind of panel...in a J.

[Slick Nick]

3 minutes ago, Echo said:

There are M20E's that have the exterior and interior J mods done.  They are priced in J territory which always makes me wonder what they get when finally sold?  I would never pay J money for a modded E OR F personally, but I am sure some do.  My plane has majority of J mods (OFF of a J) Cowl, Wingtips, Dorsal, Windshield, brake reversal, but it does NOT have a J panel.  It's upgraded with Aspen, but has functioning Brittain with Brittain Accu-flite heading bug.  I paid 85k with a lycoming new engine (dual bendix mags with 500 hours).  If I put a panel mounted Garmin and GFC I would be into J money.  NOT doing that, but I would love that kind of panel...in a J.

That’s the reason why most spend months and months on the market without selling. For J model money, buying a modified C E or F just doesn’t make sense. 

[Echo]

2 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

That’s the reason why most spend months and months on the market without selling. For J model money, buying a modified C E or F just doesn’t make sense. 

Yes.  Agree.  Looking for the "right" buyer and don't need to sell it quickly I guess...BUT I sure would love to know if owners took a bath or if they realized the gains (BESIDES flying behind it for time they owned) when they sell.  You never hear about the financial loss of a great panel investment.  Likely easily only getting 50 cents on dollar of hardware and install costs.  

[Echo]

3 hours ago, Greg_D said:

I'm trying to justify in my mind purchasing a sweet, fully loaded M20E.  I know there's a point of diminishing returns when upgrading the avionics on an older airplane like this, but I was curious what others thought the upper end of the price range a knowledgable buyer would stretch to.  I can post a picture of the panel if it would help.  And the airframe has pretty much all of the mods available (201 cowling, windshield, spinner, etc.).

What is engine time?  Is it a '65 or "newer model year"?  If low time engine as described I could see cracking 100k, but I just couldn't do it for a short body Mooney.

[Greg_D]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Dual e mags?  Did they do the new dual Surefly STC with a dedicated electrical backup? I like the surefly, but two isn’t necessarily better than one…

Yes, this one is set up with a backup electrical system.

[Greg_D]

33 minutes ago, Echo said:

Yes.  Agree.  Looking for the "right" buyer and don't need to sell it quickly I guess...BUT I sure would love to know if owners took a bath or if they realized the gains (BESIDES flying behind it for time they owned) when they sell.  You never hear about the financial loss of a great panel investment.  Likely easily only getting 50 cents on dollar of hardware and install costs.  

The owner is an A&P IA and did all of the work himself.  

[Greg_D]

30 minutes ago, Echo said:

What is engine time?  Is it a '65 or "newer model year"?  If low time engine as described I could see cracking 100k, but I just couldn't do it for a short body Mooney.

It's a 65.  700 hours on the engine and 4,000 on the airframe.

[McMooney]

a m20e isn't a cessna 150, it's faster than than the f and fully modded probably faster than the J.  lets be honest, things have gotten expensive, i'd say serviceable should probably start around 80-90k, fully loaded like you listed, shoudl probably approach 140 150

[Jackk]

What’s your aviation background and the mission for this plane?

 

 Are you changing the panel for function or for cosmetics? 

 

 I see lots of planes where someone dumped tons of money into a panel, or asked the avionics shop to make it “modern” (most avionics shops know little about flying BTW) and ended up spending tons and not really getting much out of it, or spent far more than they had to to get the same end result.

 

[Greg_D]

9 hours ago, McMooney said:

a m20e isn't a cessna 150, it's faster than than the f and fully modded probably faster than the J.  lets be honest, things have gotten expensive, i'd say serviceable should probably start around 80-90k, fully loaded like you listed, shoudl probably approach 140 150

That's the ballpark we're in.

[Greg_D]

9 hours ago, Jackk said:

What’s your aviation background and the mission for this plane?

 

 Are you changing the panel for function or for cosmetics? 

 

 I see lots of planes where someone dumped tons of money into a panel, or asked the avionics shop to make it “modern” (most avionics shops know little about flying BTW) and ended up spending tons and not really getting much out of it, or spent far more than they had to to get the same end result.

 

Let's see.  I've been flying for 43 years.  Owned 4 different Mooneys (C, F, G, and R) with about 3,500 hours in them total.  Used to ferry them for Don Maxwell and Jimmy G, so I've flown them all, except for the M22.  Currently a 737 captain at a major airline and I'll be retiring in a few years.  I currently have an Ovation, but rarely fly it for the designed mission.  I can count the number of times I've filled all 4 seats in the 20 years that I've owned it on both hands.  I used to travel all over the country in the O, so the range was nice.  It's at the point where the plane needs new avionics and a new or rebuilt engine.  So that started me looking and I found an opportunity with this E model.  The E's performance definitely meets my mission profile more these days...

The E that I'm looking at had a good panel to begin with.  It was updated in the 2002-2008 timeframe with a SWTA panel and everything current on the market then.  As mentioned earlier, the current owner is an A&P IA and an electronics wiz.  His work is meticulous.  Lives on an air park, so he took the time and did it right.  The documentation on all of the work done is incredible.  This wasn't an "avionics shop sales job".  Everything was well thought out and executed.  He knows that he isn't going to get out what he put into it.

Anyway, I was just curious what others thought about the market value.  I see quite a few of these vintage planes on the market and they are listed at some crazy prices, some are north of $160K!

 

 

[Jackk]

24 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

Let's see.  I've been flying for 43 years.  Owned 4 different Mooneys (C, F, G, and R) with about 3,500 hours in them total.  Used to ferry them for Don Maxwell and Jimmy G, so I've flown them all, except for the M22.  Currently a 737 captain at a major airline and I'll be retiring in a few years.  I currently have an Ovation, but rarely fly it for the designed mission.  I can count the number of times I've filled all 4 seats in the 20 years that I've owned it on both hands.  I used to travel all over the country in the O, so the range was nice.  It's at the point where the plane needs new avionics and a new or rebuilt engine.  So that started me looking and I found an opportunity with this E model.  The E's performance definitely meets my mission profile more these days...

The E that I'm looking at had a good panel to begin with.  It was updated in the 2002-2008 timeframe with a SWTA panel and everything current on the market then.  As mentioned earlier, the current owner is an A&P IA and an electronics wiz.  His work is meticulous.  Lives on an air park, so he took the time and did it right.  The documentation on all of the work done is incredible.  This wasn't an "avionics shop sales job".  Everything was well thought out and executed.  He knows that he isn't going to get out what he put into it.

Anyway, I was just curious what others thought about the market value.  I see quite a few of these vintage planes on the market and they are listed at some crazy prices, some are north of $160K!

 

 

 I wouldn’t go too wild, I don’t think anyone has remotely got their money back for a full panel job.

 

If it’s got a WAAS box, and some type of modern autopilot with GPSS, I’d maybe toss in a GI275 to replace the AI, maybe replace the DG and engine instruments too if you’re feeling fancy and call it a day.

 
 The other big improvement is make sure all your lights are LED or HIDs.

[Greg_D]

3 minutes ago, Jackk said:

 I wouldn’t go too wild, I don’t think anyone has remotely got their money back for a full panel job.

 

If it’s got a WAAS box, and some type of modern autopilot with GPSS, I’d maybe toss in a GI275 to replace the AI, maybe replace the DG and engine instruments too if you’re feeling fancy and call it a day.

 
 The other big improvement is make sure all your lights are LED or HIDs.

I guess you didn't read the description further up in the thread!  The work has already been done!

Edited Monday at 02:05 PM by Greg_D

[TheAv8r]

Hey Greg, you're nearby so let me know if you ever want to talk Es! I'm at SGR.

Probably biased as I have an E that I have painstakingly restored and modernized and would argue is one of the nicest out there  . I don't think the J should be that much of a price-step up from an E, unless you really need that extra space, a modded E is basically the same performance wise and is more nimble and crisp to fly, in my opinion. Maybe 5% more between the 2. Johnson Bar gear is its own value IMO. There have been a few E's in the last 12 months that have sold for $160k range. The J comparison isn't truly fair unless you're looking at apples to apples, a J and an E with the same panel, engine times, interior, condition, etc. Usually when I see that state, the J is more expensive even when an E is in the mid-100s. 

Here's a $140k J with good avionics and low-time engine but poor interior: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2443724&s-type=aircraft

Here's a $165k J with good avionics and low time engine and decent interior: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2445319&s-type=aircraft 

Here's a $158k J with good avionics, mid-time engine and decent interor: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2446564&s-type=aircraft

So what I would take away from that is if you have an E with good avionics, low-time engine and good interior, you're looking at $150s-160k, benchmarking against the $165 and $158k. If one of those goes down (e.g. good avionics, decent interior, mid-time engine, etc.) then $140ks seem to be reasonable. I don't see any E on the market that has low-time engine + good avionics + good interior, 

I have a '65 M20E with 170hrs on a freshly overhauled engine done by a well-known engine shop with a freshly overhauled prop, brand new non-AD hub, all new accessories (firewall-forward was done at the overhaul), SureFly e-mag, GAMI injectors, fine-wire plugs, new alternator, new voltage regulator, new battery. New panel, Garmin G5s, GMA345, STEC 30 AP, 430W completely overhauled by Garmin, JPI 930 engine monitor with CIES Fuel Senders, all new switches, wiring, circuit breakers, custom cut flat, one-piece panel. I have a brand new full Executive interior done by AeroComfort that included all new soundproofing, inertial reel seatbelts, custom stitching pattern, with every piece of the interior being redone. The entire electrical system is new. The plane has all LED lights, bladders, the electric step mod, one-piece windshield, gets flown 125+ hours a year and is meticulously maintained. When I had it valued after all the work was done to figure out what I needed to insure it for, it was north of $170k. That's obviously not me getting my money back . 

[Greg_D]

37 minutes ago, TheAv8r said:

Hey Greg, you're nearby so let me know if you ever want to talk Es! I'm at SGR.

Probably biased as I have an E that I have painstakingly restored and modernized and would argue is one of the nicest out there  . I don't think the J should be that much of a price-step up from an E, unless you really need that extra space, a modded E is basically the same performance wise and is more nimble and crisp to fly, in my opinion. Maybe 5% more between the 2. Johnson Bar gear is its own value IMO. There have been a few E's in the last 12 months that have sold for $160k range. The J comparison isn't truly fair unless you're looking at apples to apples, a J and an E with the same panel, engine times, interior, condition, etc. Usually when I see that state, the J is more expensive even when an E is in the mid-100s. 

Here's a $140k J with good avionics and low-time engine but poor interior: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2443724&s-type=aircraft

Here's a $165k J with good avionics and low time engine and decent interior: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2445319&s-type=aircraft 

Here's a $158k J with good avionics, mid-time engine and decent interor: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2446564&s-type=aircraft

So what I would take away from that is if you have an E with good avionics, low-time engine and good interior, you're looking at $150s-160k, benchmarking against the $165 and $158k. If one of those goes down (e.g. good avionics, decent interior, mid-time engine, etc.) then $140ks seem to be reasonable. I don't see any E on the market that has low-time engine + good avionics + good interior, 

I have a '65 M20E with 170hrs on a freshly overhauled engine done by a well-known engine shop with a freshly overhauled prop, brand new non-AD hub, all new accessories (firewall-forward was done at the overhaul), SureFly e-mag, GAMI injectors, fine-wire plugs, new alternator, new voltage regulator, new battery. New panel, Garmin G5s, GMA345, STEC 30 AP, 430W completely overhauled by Garmin, JPI 930 engine monitor with CIES Fuel Senders, all new switches, wiring, circuit breakers, custom cut flat, one-piece panel. I have a brand new full Executive interior done by AeroComfort that included all new soundproofing, inertial reel seatbelts, custom stitching pattern, with every piece of the interior being redone. The entire electrical system is new. The plane has all LED lights, bladders, the electric step mod, one-piece windshield, gets flown 125+ hours a year and is meticulously maintained. When I had it valued after all the work was done to figure out what I needed to insure it for, it was north of $170k. That's obviously not me getting my money back . 

Wow, that looks awesome.  You'll have to come up to Hooks for lunch one day!

[Echo]

140,000 to 160,000 for an M20E? Show me this buyer.  I simply do not believe it.  Let that individual come on here and tell me he spent $140-$160,000 buying an M20E.   The M20E does not, in the real world, command the sale price that M20J does.

I know people that own M20E's put a lot of money into updating them.  That is a labor of love.  I have yet to hear of them selling the plane for $140-160k...

[Echo]

So what I would take away from that is if you have an E with good avionics, low-time engine and good interior, you're looking at $150s-160k, benchmarking against the $165 and $158k. If one of those goes down (e.g. good avionics, decent interior, mid-time engine, etc.) then $140ks seem to be reasonable.

Would LOVE for this to be true....but it isn't.

[TheAv8r]

You literally just had someone in this thread who spent $140k on an F . An F is a slower E.

[Greg_D]

27 minutes ago, Echo said:

140,000 to 160,000 for an M20E? Show me this buyer.  I simply do not believe it.  Let that individual come on here and tell me he spent $140-$160,000 buying an M20E.   The M20E does not, in the real world, command the sale price that M20J does.

I know people that own M20E's put a lot of money into updating them.  That is a labor of love.  I have yet to hear of them selling the plane for $140-160k...

I actually saw some a couple of years ago selling for exactly those prices.  I'll see if I can find pictures!

[Paul Thomas]

21 minutes ago, Echo said:

So what I would take away from that is if you have an E with good avionics, low-time engine and good interior, you're looking at $150s-160k, benchmarking against the $165 and $158k. If one of those goes down (e.g. good avionics, decent interior, mid-time engine, etc.) then $140ks seem to be reasonable.

Would LOVE for this to be true....but it isn't.

I'm not going to give tail numbers or other details but I can tell you those numbers are realistic. A nice airplane with an updated panel with G3X, GTN, GFC... put the airplane a whole different category and they don't tend to sit for long.

For a lot of people, the utility of a E is the same as the one of a J because they're using it as a two airplane and bags, or a backup airplane + training/currency.

[Echo]

Happy to be "wrong".  I don't believe I am.  Please continue to shoot the messenger that has an opinion.

Riddle me this?  Why would anyone pay $140k for an older, smaller airframe?  Why would someone NOT buy the $140k J over an E pretending to be a https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2443724&s-type=aircraft

Edited Monday at 05:19 PM by Echo