201 Gear Up at KDWH

[Hank]

14 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

If the engine is not producing power, but the prop is spinning, a prop strike calls for a teardown too? I guess so because of the transversal forces and sudden stop (high acceleration  = high forces)

If your plane is parked in the hangar and something runs into the building and hits your stopped prop, a teardown is required. 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

On edit, I’ve climbed to altitude to practice stopping the prop, on my 201 with factory prop, it won’t stop until I bring it real close to stall, and even then  it has to be bumped by the starter to get level, often of course flipping past compression and ending up where you started. I gave up on the idea of prop stopping on both engine failures at altitude and forced landing gear up.

Was the prop control pulled all the way back when you tried this?

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

If the engine is not producing power, but the prop is spinning, a prop strike calls for a teardown too? I guess so because of the transversal forces and sudden stop (high acceleration  = high forces)

Not necessarily.   The AD only requires inspection and replacement of a gear retainer in the accessory case, which can be done on at least some Mooneys without removing the engine.    Insurance companies will often pay for a full IRAN, though, so that's what is often done.

[A64Pilot]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

Was the prop control pulled all the way back when you tried this?

No

Reason is as soon as the engine stops, oil pressure goes away and the pitch goes to min, meaning it may move on you, or not who knows? Besides I didn’t think to try it.

Idea was more than anything is if you were at altitude and needed to stretch the glide, a stopped prop has way less drag, but while I didn’t run the numbers I think it’s a fools errand I think because the altitude you will lose accelerating back to best glide is worse than if you just stayed at best glide and I guess pull the prop all the way out, I think.

To pull this off for a gear up it’s my thought that you would have to stop the prop at altitude, then modify your pattern to make the runway. I don’t see any way your going to pull it off on final.

[1980Mooney]

On 8/13/2025 at 12:22 PM, Yetti said:

That's not how foam works.  Foam floats on top of the oil to cut off oxygen to the fire.   And yes i used foam yesterday.  For a brush pile.   If it was Class B foam it is corrosive to aluminum.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 12:32 PM, Paul Thomas said:

Do you know what class the airports use and whether it's corrosive? That would be a big negative toward foam. I don't recall seeing small airplanes catch on fire on a controlled gear up.

I'd think that even if the foam is slick, a lot a aerodynamic braking can be done to slow the airplane down. Keeping back pressure should also keep some weight off the airplane, hopefully further limiting damage.

I just hope to never be in that situation; even if you do everything perfect, what a nightmare. 

 

On 8/13/2025 at 3:50 PM, Yetti said:

Hooks is where this happened.   They don't have AARF on the field, so it was a local fire departments.   Not sure what they would have on the trucks for that department.  Practice is not to foam the runways these days.   

 We carry class A for most every thing we do.     Dawn soap makes a really good foaming agent I have used it in a pressure washer and put out oil fires.   As we know Dawn is also corrosive to aluminum.

 

19 hours ago, Yetti said:

I spoke with one of the other fire departments located in the Houston area, but they don't cover Hooks airport.   He said they carry both A and B foam on the trucks.   

Per Channel 11 "Firefighters from multiple agencies responded, including Klein Fire, Spring Fire, Champions Fire and Northwest Volunteer Fire." and "Crews used Klein Fire’s Foam 30 unit to lay down a foam blanket on the runway"

It appears that Klein Foam 30 carries Class A and Class B foam.  The Class B foam (AFFF) is what they say that they use for flammable liquid fires.  The news reported that the pilot flew longer "to burn off excess fuel" so someone was overly concerned that a gear-up Mooney landing might start a fire. (never heard of it happening to a Mooney unless the plane departed runway and struck an immovable object/antenna/etc)

Class B foam (the bad stuff with "forever fluorocarbons" costs about $30/gallon.  The non-fluorocarbon Class B costs about $200-300/gallon.

It appears that they put down a crapload of foam.   I bet there is a similar amount behind the plane.  300 gallons?..500?...1,000?  300 gallons is less than 6 drums.  I bet it is more.  Who is paying for that?

Since insurance is involved, I wonder if the Klein fire department tries to bill it to the Mooney owner.  There is no way that the airport will pay for it.  Hooks is privately owned by the Gill family.  Hooks is one of the airports that charges ramp fees which are so despised on MS.  

[1980Mooney]

Here is pic of them in action spraying the foam.  They must have sprayed 1,000 gallons easy - maybe 2,000.  Maybe more....

 

Edited August 15 by 1980Mooney

[1980Mooney]

On 8/10/2025 at 8:01 PM, Paul Thomas said:

I read that one of the blades touched on landing.

 

On 8/10/2025 at 6:53 PM, EricJ said:

Looks like it.   Since it was an anticipated gear-up due to a mechanical failure it looks like they stopped the prop and managed to actually stop on the foam as well.   Can't tell what the flap or cowl flap positions were, but looks like they managed it for minimal damage.

Looks like he had full flaps which drug the runway and got bent/ground off. The cowl flaps were open so they got ground down.

As noted above it looks like the prop is bent.

 

[1980Mooney]

On 8/10/2025 at 1:26 PM, Mooney in Oz said:

This one appears to be a gear malfunction.

A well executed landing.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/535733

 

 

On 8/10/2025 at 2:53 PM, toto said:

Nicely done 

 

On 8/10/2025 at 6:50 PM, redbaron1982 said:

Looks like a perfect landing giving the circumstances 

No one has asked why the pilot didn't manually lower the landing gear.

This is serial number 24-0040 so it had the Dukes landing gear actuator.  I have no idea how the Dukes is operated during emergency procedures.

At least the good news is that this was not a failure of the "no-back" spring or the Eaton actuators since it did not have it. 

The owner of this plane was on MS back in Dec. 2023 where he started a topic on "Gear Unsafe Light".  At the time he showed his N-number and serial number.  However he subsequently deleted his account and his posts appear as "Guest".

He said "Fixed my last problem and after my last landing (was not hard), gear unsafe light and horn came on and the gr act breaker popped. Taxiied clear and shut down after verifying that the floor indicator showed gear down (it does). Reset breaker, it pops again and horn comes on. Any ideas?"

 

[skykrawler]

Sudden stoppage verses prop strike.    A prop strike may result in a sudden stoppage, or not.    If the airplane is sitting in a hangar and somebody runs into the prop then checking the runout in the crankshaft flange and having the prop hub NDT checked for damage while having the blade replaced seems appropriate.   Maybe not replacing the crankshaft gear.

If a sudden stoppage,  then crankshaft gear and possibly teardown would be in order.

Isn't water corrosive to aluminum alloys?

[Yetti]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Here is pic of them in action spraying the foam.  They must have sprayed 1,000 gallons easy - maybe 2,000.  Maybe more....

 

 

 

Class B foam is created with a 3% or 6% rate so let's just use 5% and say that's probably 30 gallons of foam and 2000 gallons of water.   So $600 of foam.    Foam should be rotated, so they were probably happy to shoot it all out and test the truck and get some new foam in the tank.

We were using Class B foam the other day I shot about a gallon and half. 

If the plane had a dukes (there is a similar Eaton) actuator, then there is a lever to push forward and you crank the gear down.    It is possible that the e gear actuator failed and he could not crank it down.

All that Class A foam is an Environmental hazard, and I would guess they just washed it off the runway.

 

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Class B foam is created with a 3% or 6% rate so let's just use 5% and say that's probably 30 gallons of foam and 2000 gallons of water.   So $600 of foam.    Foam should be rotated, so they were probably happy to shoot it all out and test the truck and get some new foam in the tank.

We were using Class B foam the other day I shot about a gallon and half. 

If the plane had a dukes (there is a similar Eaton) actuator, then there is a lever to push forward and you crank the gear down.    It is possible that the e gear actuator failed and he could not crank it down.

All that Class A foam is an Environmental hazard, and I would guess they just washed it off the runway.

 

Thanks for the foam info. 

All early J’s through serial number 24-0377 had Dukes landing gear actuators with the emergency gear down crank on the pilot’s sidewalk near the footwell.  This was serial no. 24-0040.  You can see it in the old aircraft.com ad.  
 

If the Dukes gear actuator and manual emergency extension system failed then this could result in an investigation and action (SB or AD) on the Dukes system.  Perhaps the owners with Dukes gear actuators could comment on how/why the Dukes manual gear extension might fail. Is it possible for the pilot to jam it if he does not properly follow the procedure (like you can do with the Eaton)?

[Yetti]

13 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Thanks for the foam info. 

All early J’s through serial number 24-0377 had Dukes landing gear actuators with the emergency gear down crank on the pilot’s sidewalk near the footwell.  This was serial no. 24-0040.  You can see it in the old aircraft.com ad.  
 

If the Dukes gear actuator and manual emergency extension system failed then this could result in an investigation and action (SB or AD) on the Dukes system.  Perhaps the owners with Dukes gear actuators could comment on how/why the Dukes manual gear extension might fail. Is it possible for the pilot to jam it if he does not properly follow the procedure (like you can do with the Eaton)?

I had the same actuator in the F model there already is at least an SB to lube and test during annual, along with the changing of the gears to 20-1.    

The way for the pilot to fail it is try and crank the gear back up as the cable is twisted one way.    Also engaging the E actuator and then running the electric motor.    Key here is to pull the breaker.

 

[IvanP]

Wow, "Firefighters from multiple agencies responded, including Klein Fire, Spring Fire, Champions Fire and Northwest Volunteer Fire." and "Crews used Klein Fire’s Foam 30 unit to lay down a foam blanket on the runway" - this seems to be a bit of an overkill response to emergency landing caused by landing gear malfunction, but I guess better be safe then sorry. 

If the plane was underinsured it is ikely heading for salvage market. 

 

[MikeOH]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

It appears that they put down a crapload of foam.   I bet there is a similar amount behind the plane.  300 gallons?..500?...1,000?  300 gallons is less than 6 drums.  I bet it is more.  Who is paying for that?

Since insurance is involved, I wonder if the Klein fire department tries to bill it to the Mooney owner.  There is no way that the airport will pay for it.  Hooks is privately owned by the Gill family.  Hooks is one of the airports that charges ramp fees which are so despised on MS.  

But the BIG question is, will Vector bill him for the landing?

[varlajo]

4 hours ago, MikeOH said:

But the BIG question is, will Vector bill him for the landing?

He can always argue that his wheels have never once touched the ground.. 
I'm sure sliding on a foam pad qualifies as a low pass.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, MikeOH said:

But the BIG question is, will Vector bill him for the landing?

Of course they will, his landing was full stop.

Will his insurance pay it, though? 

[1980Mooney]

On 8/15/2025 at 12:15 PM, MikeOH said:

But the BIG question is, will Vector bill him for the landing?

 

On 8/15/2025 at 4:43 PM, varlajo said:

He can always argue that his wheels have never once touched the ground.. 
I'm sure sliding on a foam pad qualifies as a low pass.

 

On 8/15/2025 at 4:55 PM, Hank said:

Of course they will, his landing was full stop.

Will his insurance pay it, though? 

There may be a simpler more elegant solution.....   Hooks historically waived the ramp/landing fee if you purchased fuel.

"Roll the fuel truck and top her off".  Then he can have it dragged to the ramp with no Vector/PlanePass fee!