robert7467 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 I guess we all have our oponions about flaps, full stops, touch and goes... It all depends on the instructor. I am very confident in my instructor with his 1000's of hours of instructing and his pasion for anything that flies. He has flown everything from Helicopters to Airbus, and he is even an A&P instructor as well. Trust me, he has been teaching me with flaps, speed control, etc.. But I have found, that flaps on a mooney dont work for me.... Now that I am comfortable with the Mooney, and soloing, I might try using flaps, trimming it out, and coming to a full stop.... but in the meantime, no flaps, touch and goes helped me out alot. Quote
WardHolbrook Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: robert7467 "Sounds to me that you (and your instructor) aren't setting the plane up right on final - trim it to speed" We were setting plane up perfectly on final, but for some reason, on this particular plane, flaps dont work for me. I dont know why, but I hate them.. On a Cessna, I love flaps, but Mooney, I hate them..... Also, going 90mph on final, the plane goes down right where I want it, and the landing is smooth and perfect every time... I dont know what it is about flaps on a Mooney, but I hate them. Most of my landing have been with flaps, and thats the reason it took me so long to solo. As soon as I quit using them, my landings have been perfect. Quote
Ron McBride Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Robert Tomorrow will be the 40th anniversary of getting my Pilots License. I have done touch and goes in many aircraft, basic, complex single and multi engine aircraft. The Mooney takes more practice than most. The Mooney requires more precision to fly correctly than most. 90 miles an hour on final is way to fast. No flap landings are just abusing your aircraft and incresing your maintenance costs. I have an F model and can if I work hard at it, have it stopped in about 700 feet. If you continue to fly 90 MPH finals with no flaps, you are eliminating many runways that you can use, they will be to short for safety. 75 MPH on final is great, and slow to just above stall speed over the numbers. Please read all of the information on properly landing your Mooney on this web site. As far as touch and goes go; I do not do them reguarly in my Mooney, unless I am on a long runway, there is to many configuration changes for me. Yes I have Electric gear and flaps, but it still requires a large trim change to go from landing trim to proper takeoff trim. Touch and goes can teach the proper attitude and speed control on final, how to touch down properly, but do not teach how to get the plane completely stopped. I have had Instructors have me do them, and I have refused due to comfort levels. As has been stated before, your nose wheel has a problem, get this corrected. If you go to the Don Maxwell web site, you can read about what a loose nose wheel can do to your landings. Please get this fixed. Your Instructor may be a good instructor, but he needs to teach you to slow down. Not every airport has a 5000 ft runway with jet traffic to deal with. Ron Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: robert7467 I guess we all have our oponions about flaps, full stops, touch and goes... It all depends on the instructor. I am very confident in my instructor with his 1000's of hours of instructing and his pasion for anything that flies. He has flown everything from Helicopters to Airbus, and he is even an A&P instructor as well. Trust me, he has been teaching me with flaps, speed control, etc.. But I have found, that flaps on a mooney dont work for me.... Now that I am comfortable with the Mooney, and soloing, I might try using flaps, trimming it out, and coming to a full stop.... but in the meantime, no flaps, touch and goes helped me out alot. Quote
xftrplt Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: 1964-M20E ...I see F-15s, F-16s, F-18s and C-130s doing touch and go’s all the time. You do not get more complex than those planes. Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: N9154V As has been stated before, your nose wheel has a problem, get this corrected. If you go to the Don Maxwell web site, you can read about what a loose nose wheel can do to your landings. Please get this fixed.  http://donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/M20-202%20-%20Eight-Second%20Ride/EIGHT_SECOND_RIDE.HTM See link above, as mentioned earlier. On another note, it's perfectly fair game for a DPE to test you on the checkride with a landing as if the flap motor had failed on your plane. That was part of the practical test on a couple of my checkrides in the C172. Quote
jetdriven Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 ...Again we have a solo student pilot lecturing airline pilots on proper technique.  Amazing what I learn. Quote
rob Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 A no-flap landing in a short body Mooney presents a very different sight picture and feel from a full-flap landing. The "right way" to do it is the full flap landing under most circumstances. You need to master that. And you need to master it at significantly less than 90mph on final. Landing with no flaps and doing touch-and-goes is doing nothing for you, Robert, except getting your numbers higher. Bad practice makes bad habits. Touch and Go's are bad practice, add an unsatisfactory amount of risk, and are bad for the airplane. You're not doing yourself any favors, especially considering the mile-long runways that you're almost certainly training on. You have plenty of room to land, stop, and take off. You're hearing a lot of advice here that's very valuable. And its coming from CFI's and ATPs who own Mooneys and fly them daily. It would be in your best interest to listen to them. We all hear that your CFI has a lot of hours, and that's obviously important to you, so why not consider the amount of time the collective here represents. You're probably getting advice from 10,000+ hours of Mooney time alone. When I was getting my PPL, I used a CFII who was an AP/IA and a former Mooney owner. I thought he hung the moon. Actually though, he taught me several bad habits and bad attitudes. I've since flown with several other instructors, both Mooney familiar and not, and have learned from each of them. You are a student pilot, you have a ton to learn - it would be best to soak up as much as possible from as many sources as possible. Never rely on just one when there are many available. Last, let me echo the comments to get your nosegear checked out. It should not be squirrely or anything other than dead straight. There shouldn't be any play in there. Don't do it locally, don't take it to KAWM. Go to a Mooney specalist and have them take a look. I'd recommend Don Maxwell. I am speaking from experience. Quote
robert7467 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 "It's poor technique to not use flaps. You need every bit of help in reducing speed, especially when it comes time to settle in on a 2000 foot runway." I agree that I need to learn how to use them, and now that I got landing down to a science, I will practice trimming, and doing full stops, but as far as landing rough is concerned, all my landings as been gentle... In fact, when I land, going 85-90 MPH, I am still able to take the 1st turn off the runway. Trust me, without flaps, the plane touches down right where I want it to. I am able to come to a full stop on the 1st turn, and the landings have been extremely gentle to the airframe. Quote
rob Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: robert7467 Trust me, without flaps, the plane touches down right where I want it to. I am able to come to a full stop on the 1st turn, and the landings have been extremely gentle to the airframe. Quote
N33GG Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 There is a law of primacy when learning. It basically states that whatever is learned first makes an almost indelible and unshakable impression, and is very difficult to replace with anything else. Just try to undo bad habits that have been learned first! Hence the importance of learning things right the first time. As an instructor, it is common to teach students the "right" way to fly an aircraft, because you need to get the student into a pattern that will be safe and predictable. The fact is that there are a lot of "right" ways to fly an aircraft, and some aircraft have more "right" ways than others. If I am teaching someone with 5000 hours in many different GA aircraft how to fly a Mooney, I might explore various techniques of how to fly. However, if I am teaching someone that has a few hundred hours how to fly a Mooney, I would probably stick to a pretty basic formala for safe flying. As instructors, we wish we could teach every student everything we know, but it is simply impossible. Nothing is more frightening to an instructor than having a student hear about some technique from fellow pilots and deciding to go try it out for him/herself without proper training and understanding of perhaps subtle issues involved. Students should not try to be test pilots. In summary, there are very few absolutes in this world, and many "right" ways to fly an aircraft. In the right hands, a Mooney flown differently than you fly your Mooney MAY be just as safe and well flown. But then again, MAYBE NOT. It just depends. Good luck and please be safe out there. Quote
jetdriven Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: robert7467 "It's poor technique to not use flaps. You need every bit of help in reducing speed, especially when it comes time to settle in on a 2000 foot runway." I agree that I need to learn how to use them, and now that I got landing down to a science, I will practice trimming, and doing full stops, but as far as landing rough is concerned, all my landings as been gentle... In fact, when I land, going 85-90 MPH, I am still able to take the 1st turn off the runway. Trust me, without flaps, the plane touches down right where I want it to. I am able to come to a full stop on the 1st turn, and the landings have been extremely gentle to the airframe. Quote
robert7467 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 I am not saying I will never use flaps..... I am at that stage now, to where I have that perfect picture, to where I can do perfect landings, and now is the time for me to start trimming, and doing full stops... Like I said, in a cessna, I have no problems with flaps whatsoever, and thats probally what I will end up taking my checkride in. As far as the nosewheel wobble is concerned, we had our Mooney specific mechanic jack the plane up, and check all of the rigging, and found no problems. Quote
rob Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 If you have a nosewheel wobble you have a problem. Even if your mechanic says you don't. Do me a favor, go out to the aircraft, and measure the distance from the tip of the prop when vertical to the ground. Let us know what that distance is... Â Â Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: robert7467 I am not saying I will never use flaps..... I am at that stage now, to where I have that perfect picture, to where I can do perfect landings, and now is the time for me to start trimming, and doing full stops...  Quote
MARZ Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Robert - seriously, if you continue to practice these habits your going to have a loss of control on the runway or drive your prop into the pavement after a few bounces.  Hopefully you will walk away unscathed. These aren't personal attacks going on here - learn from others experiences. Quote
Hank Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Touch-n-goes have their place, but it's not for student pilots in a complex plane. I normally save them for practice Instrument approaches where the runway is long enough to reconfigure [5000' or more]. No-flap landings have their place, too, to practice and demonstrate proficiency in case of failure. They should not be standard practice. But what do I know? I only have 500 Mooney hours and am not a CFI, but I have flown with several good ones. I fly 90 MPH downwind and base with Approach flaps, slow to 85 MPH on final, and further reduce speed by 5 MPH for every 300 lbs. the plane is below gross [include fuel burned since departure!]. Flaps are a tool to both 1) reduce airspeed and 2) lose altitude with minimal increase in airspeed. My plane accelerates very nicely in a 500 fpm descent, thank you very much! Flaps help to slow her down. Take your CFI and practice flying level at 90 MPH, gear down, approach flaps down, in your practice area nice and high. Make some turns simulating downwind-to-base and base-to-final while descending 300-500 fpm. Notice how the nose drops when flaps go down, and compensate by adding trim. Your goal is a hands-off descent at constant speed. In the pattern, repeat this newly-learned skill, aiming for 75 MPH or less over the numbers and set the wheels on the second stripe. Back pressure on the yoke will keep the nose wheel from slamming down, just like in any other airplane. If you have correct trim, it won't be hard to hold off, but does require more yoke travel than a 172. Try it! IN THE MEANTIME, any update on the new Mooney pilot who had problems landing in Scottsdale? <hint to students, learn to land properly so we won't read about you, too . . . . > Quote
mooneygirl Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 My friend is based there, this is his note:Â I visited the airport yesterday and apparently, this incident happened on his 5th T&G... Witness are reporting the new owner of a M20J had a hard landing on his 5th and when he tried to take off, the engine sputtered (probably by advancing the throttle too quickly in panic) and the aircraft stalled and struck the asphalt, collapsing the nose gear the engine and damaging the wings...Again there is a lot of speculation but once NTSB reviews the airport videos, we will find out more..!!! Personally I am grateful that everyone walked out ok but at the same time I do not think T&G in a complex aircraft can be solely held responsible for this incident....We will find out more soon...!!! Quote
rob Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: Hank I fly 90 MPH downwind and base with Approach flaps, slow to 85 MPH on final, and further reduce speed by 5 MPH for every 300 lbs. the plane is below gross [include fuel burned since departure!]. Flaps are a tool to both 1) reduce airspeed and 2) lose altitude with minimal increase in airspeed. My plane accelerates very nicely in a 500 fpm descent, thank you very much! Flaps help to slow her down. Quote
jetdriven Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: Parker_Woodruff  So you've been taught to not use trim up until this point? That's either poor instruction (not teaching constant trimming when adjusting configuration for landing), or something very important you missed in your training! See my above post. Does your Mooney specific mechanic use the service manual? Is he/she competent with the service manual? Quote
PTK Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Quote: robert7467 I guess we all have our oponions about flaps, full stops, touch and goes... It all depends on the instructor. I am very confident in my instructor with his 1000's of hours of instructing and his pasion for anything that flies. He has flown everything from Helicopters to Airbus, and he is even an A&P instructor as well. Trust me, he has been teaching me with flaps, speed control, etc.. But I have found, that flaps on a mooney dont work for me.... Now that I am comfortable with the Mooney, and soloing, I might try using flaps, trimming it out, and coming to a full stop.... but in the meantime, no flaps, touch and goes helped me out alot. Quote
mooneygirl Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Why don't we wait to find out the situation in Scottsdale. The happy news is that airframe took a beating, so that the occupants didn't. The injuries appear to be mild-moderate. Hopefully the new Mooney owner will recover and find another Mooney. I think we have to remember Rod Macado's "So what" factor at times. You fly 85 I fly 80, so what. Enough said. Have a happy day everyone. Quote
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