Lycoming factory .rebuilt vs new

[Falcon Man]

Dan,

Curious as to why you are OH your engine?

Jeff

[PT20J]

In 2018, I chose a factory rebuilt IO-360-A3B6 for several reasons: I wanted to get rid of the dual mag engine; I wanted roller tappets; I liked the idea that the engine would be mostly new and built on the same line as new engines with the same QA processes. It was also the fastest way to get back in the air back then.

Given the current lead times, if I were doing this today and had a runout engine that I was otherwise happy with, I would strongly consider overhaul by one of the big name shops.

[MikeOH]

Thread drift...what are the real, as opposed to perceived, advantages to using a "Big Name Shop" vs. a local engine builder?  I've heard horror stories about revered Big Name Shops, so I'm on the fence about paying the 'premium'.  Probably not a lot of hard data one way or the other.

[Schllc]

46 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Thread drift...what are the real, as opposed to perceived, advantages to using a "Big Name Shop" vs. a local engine builder?  I've heard horror stories about revered Big Name Shops, so I'm on the fence about paying the 'premium'.  Probably not a lot of hard data one way or the other.

A big well know shop probably does a lot more volume. That means a record, good bad or indifferent. Not sure there is any way to know what their statistical record would be, but we know unhappy customers talk a lot, and satisfied ones are flying their planes…

I interviewed quite a few small(er) shops for quotes when I was considering a bravo. 
I would have no problem with one of them, have to look for the quote , I can’t recall the  name, but I saw the shop and it inspired confidence.  Very tidy and competent looking crew. 
that’s obviously the easy part,  but if you don’t even do that, it’s not a good sign. 
the owner called me back, spent a lot of time talking, and checked up on the proposal twice. 
lots of good signals, and I spoke to two old customers, one whom had a few issues. 
both praised his communication and integrity. 
these are the kinds of things I would like to see in a small shop. 
earnest people usually do the right thing during, and after. 
 

at least that’s the odds I play…

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Thread drift...what are the real, as opposed to perceived, advantages to using a "Big Name Shop" vs. a local engine builder?  I've heard horror stories about revered Big Name Shops, so I'm on the fence about paying the 'premium'.  Probably not a lot of hard data one way or the other.

I was very satisfied with the work Ben did at Corona Aircraft Engines.  A smaller shop close to both of us.  

[MikeOH]

34 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I was very satisfied with the work Ben did at Corona Aircraft Engines.  A smaller shop close to both of us.  

Thanks for the PIREP!  That's actually the shop I've been considering.

[Jsno]

I would go with an overhaul.  Use the money saved for avgas.

[1980Mooney]

On 7/26/2025 at 8:35 PM, Shadrach said:

Why anybody would risk buying a factory engine from either brand when they have a reputable engine builder within driving distance is beyond me. The economics simply don’t make sense when coupled with the increase in risk, poor factory warranty and questionable service. 

Factory “zero time” is a marketing ploy for the uninformed. If you have an existing engine with a known and proven history of reliability, why on earth would you give up those parts for unknown parts?

Why on earth would you tear down an engine that is functioning well with a history of good service in favor of an unknown? 

 

On 7/27/2025 at 10:23 AM, dkkim73 said:

I wonder if anyone has any good reliability and time-in-service numbers on engines rebuilt by "higher-end" shops like Victor, Gann, etc. I've heard anecdotal positive reports even about small rebuilders. So also about machining valve guides to reduce wear etc. 

 

18 hours ago, PT20J said:

In 2018, I chose a factory rebuilt IO-360-A3B6 for several reasons: I wanted to get rid of the dual mag engine; I wanted roller tappets; I liked the idea that the engine would be mostly new and built on the same line as new engines with the same QA processes. It was also the fastest way to get back in the air back then.

Given the current lead times, if I were doing this today and had a runout engine that I was otherwise happy with, I would strongly consider overhaul by one of the big name shops.

 

17 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Thread drift...what are the real, as opposed to perceived, advantages to using a "Big Name Shop" vs. a local engine builder?  I've heard horror stories about revered Big Name Shops, so I'm on the fence about paying the 'premium'.  Probably not a lot of hard data one way or the other.

The people that work in these shops are human. 

• Humans are prone to making mistakes.
• Dealing with a large volume of the same type engine can build greater understanding/knowledge, develop consistent processes and better maintain a depth of well-trained personnel in order to maintain consistency while dealing with vacations, sick days, and turn-over.
• A "local engine builder" might be dealing with a different engine each rebuild 
  • It can be like starting over/relearning all the quirks with that engine (and there are so many variations even in the same engine - some dictated by the airframe manufacturer).
• The Factory or a "Big Name Shop" will likely have focused teams working on the same type engine over and over
  • Repetition is not a guarantee for quality (it can have its own issues) but it reduces the effect of "forgetting what you know/have learned" during periods of inactivity with that particular engine
    • It is the same reason we need activity and repetition to stay "proficient" flying.
    • Case in point - Rocket Engineering did one of the last if not the last Missile conversion on my plane.  The mechanics told me it had been about 6 months since they did the most recent "piston" conversion, and they had been busy with JetProp DLX conversions of Malibu's.  They literally forgot how to properly plumb up the Continental fuel injection.  It is lucky that we didn't get killed flying it.  I was standing there when they had the local Continental Rep come out and diagnose their FUBAR and perform a proper SID-97 adjustment of the fuel system. 

Roll the dice.

[PT20J]

While not an absolute guarantee of quality, the Lycoming factory is AS9100 certified. 

[M20F]

On 7/26/2025 at 11:30 PM, philiplane said:

there is no reason to pay the premium for a new engine versus a rebuilt. All the parts that really matter, the cylinders and camshaft, and all accessories, are new in both versions. 

This is key.  The thread seems to be talking about two things.  Quality of parts and quality of build.  
 
The best engine builder cannot make an IO360 work with connecting rods made out of bamboo.  Conversely the finest connecting rod known to man is of no use to a milkman. 
 
The factory rebuild doesn’t really bring anything to the party for the $$, except resale.  There is a subset of uneducated buyers that will pay for it. 

[jetdriven]

3 minutes ago, M20F said:

This is key.  The thread seems to be talking about two things.  Quality of parts and quality of build.  
 
The best engine builder cannot make an IO360 work with connecting rods made out of bamboo.  Conversely the finest connecting rod known to man is of no use to a milkman. 
 
The factory rebuild doesn’t really bring anything to the party for the $$, except resale.  There is a subset of uneducated buyers that will pay for it. 

The factory brings new crank cases and new cylinder assemblies to the party, and that's something you can't get from anywhere else to begin with. And while theoretically, you can get just as good of an overhaul out of a set of used cylinders, and a used case, these boards are full of the misery caused by early demise of a shoddy overhaul. Especially that Jewell place, where they ran bottle brush hones down the cylinders and spray painted them and call them overhauled, and 200 hours later the engine comes apart and it's all junk. I think that you could say that the guys at Power masters, western skyways, Poplar Grove, Zephyr, and Ly-Con can put together an engine better than the factory can, because the craftsmanship there is so high. And that's from the reputation. But if they're forced to use rebuilt cylinders with unknown history, there's no way to craftsmanship out of that.

Edited July 28 by jetdriven

[M20F]

6 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

But if they're forced to use rebuilt cylinders with unknown history, there's no way to craftsmanship out of that.

They can’t buy new cases or cylinders?

[Schllc]

8 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The factory brings new crank cases and new cylinder assemblies to the party, and that's something you can't get from anywhere else to begin with. And while theoretically, you can get just as good of an overhaul out of a set of used cylinders, and a used case, these boards are full of the misery caused by early demise of a shoddy overhaul. Especially that Jewell place, where they ran bottle brush hones down the cylinders and spray painted them and call them overhauled, and 200 hours later the engine comes apart and it's all junk. I think that you could say that the guys at Power masters, western skyways, Poplar Grove, Zephyr, and Ly-Con can put together an engine better than the factory can, because the craftsmanship there is so high. And that's from the reputation. But if they're forced to use rebuilt cylinders with unknown history, there's no way to craftsmanship out of that.

Can you call it overhauled with the old cylinders and pistons?  
I would think that’s one of the only mandatory replacements. 
 

[jetdriven]

2 minutes ago, M20F said:

They can’t buy new cases or cylinders?

Nobody's buying new cases for Lycoming engines or cylinders for angle valve engines. Try to order one

[jetdriven]

2 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Can you call it overhauled with the old cylinders and pistons?  
I would think that’s one of the only mandatory replacements. 
 

Lycoming as a service letter that describes mandatory replacement parts overhaul. And 200 or more horsepower four-cylinder pistons are required to be replaced. But pistons are available, it's the cylinders, cranks, and the cases that are not.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/file/2025-07/SB240AA Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

[M20F]

8 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Nobody's buying new cases for Lycoming engines or cylinders for angle valve engines. Try to order one

Nobody can or nobody is?   You can’t buy new cylinders?  I am not sure I follow you here.  

[jetdriven]

The factory is so backordered that Airpower won't even take a reservation or orders for that stuff. I think they're still shipping some parallel cylinders here and there, but it's been that way for a few years now. You can get new parallel valve cylinders from superior, they frequently backordered for months as well, and continental is manufacturing prime cylinders that used to be what ECI was making, I'm not so sure about the quality of those. And I attempted to engage the continental guy at Oshkosh, and he knew less about them than my six-year-old niece. But if you have a hole in a crank case, then Lord help you, because you ain't getting one of those new, and the used ones are unimaginably rare as well.

[M20F]

9 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The factory is so backordered that Airpower won't even take a reservation or orders for that stuff. I think they're still shipping some parallel cylinders here and there, but it's been that way for a few years now. You can get new parallel valve cylinders from superior, they frequently backordered for months as well, and continental is manufacturing prime cylinders that used to be what ECI was making, I'm not so sure about the quality of those. And I attempted to engage the continental guy at Oshkosh, and he knew less about them than my six-year-old niece. But if you have a hole in a crank case, then Lord help you, because you ain't getting one of those new, and the used ones are unimaginably rare as well.

It’s a yes or no question.  Can you buy new cylinders, cases, etc. or not?   

[LANCECASPER]

On 7/26/2025 at 12:56 AM, purcel said:

Hi all,

 

I’m about to pull the trigger on a replacement engine ( Lycoming TIO-540-AK1A) and I’m debating between going Factory New or Factory Rebuilt directly from Lycoming.

Some context:

My current engine is approaching overhaul time.

I know the rebuilt option comes with zero-time logbooks and the same warranty as new, but it includes re-certified components.

I’ve had bad experiences in the past (BMW factory rebuild that burned oil…), so I’m a bit skeptical about reused parts.

Main concerns

Is the factory rebuilt truly as reliable as a new one in real-world use?

Have any of you noticed higher oil consumption or performance issues on rebuilt engines?

Is the extra ~$60k for factory new worth it for the peace of mind (and all-new internals)?

Any issues with warranty claims between rebuilt vs new?

Would love to hear from owners/operators who’ve flown both or gone through this decision. Any advice, regrets, or things you wish you knew before choosing?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Dan

The biggest advantage where you are now,  approaching overhaul, is with a factory rebuilt since by the time you need it - a couple years, it should make any easy swap with a week or two or downtime. Sending an TIO-540-AF1B (you mentioned TIO-540-AK1A, which isn’t on a Mooney, but an -AF1A was originally in the M20M, now it’s an -Af1B)

There is not a lot of difference in price between doing this engine at Lycoming and having a custom shop do it. It’s one where I would want Lycoming to do it. @donkaye, MCFI has the most experience of anyone on here with this engine.

[Schllc]

31 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Lycoming as a service letter that describes mandatory replacement parts overhaul. And 200 or more horsepower four-cylinder pistons are required to be replaced. But pistons are available, it's the cylinders, cranks, and the cases that are not.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/file/2025-07/SB240AA Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

given thats generally the weak spot of any of our engines, i am surprised that it isn't mandatory.  i would not overhaul an engine without new cylinders.  required or not...

[Jackk]

22 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Thread drift...what are the real, as opposed to perceived, advantages to using a "Big Name Shop" vs. a local engine builder?  I've heard horror stories about revered Big Name Shops, so I'm on the fence about paying the 'premium'.  Probably not a lot of hard data one way or the other.

Feelings mostly 

Remember when Trader Joe’s 2 buck chuck fooled a bunch of wine snobs into thinking it was super high end?

 Same deal 

 

there are way more ways to make a bottle of wine than there are to overhaul a piston GA engine 

Edited July 28 by Jackk

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, Jackk said:

Feelings mostly 

Remember when Trader Joe’s 2 buck chuck fooled a bunch of wine snobs into thinking it was super high end?

 Same deal 

 

there are only so many ways to tighten a nut 

Yeah, that's kinda of what I was beginning to feel.

I think I'm going to look at this like buying a plane. It's as much about getting to know the shop/builder on a personal level and making a judgement call than reputation alone. Somewhat throws the advantage to the local shop as I can pursue that method. I'm not about to fly to Poplar Grove, Western Skyways, etc. to 'interview' them and their shop.

[jetdriven]

You can call them on the phone, the reputation speaks for itself. The local guy can theoreticaly build an engine just as well as anyone else, but I've all the pre-buys. I've done the smaller than less well known the name of the shop is the worse the Engine is. Notably, there was one assembled by an A&P, it had 50 hours on it and the oil pressure kept jumping around into the yellow. I refused to fly it, he had somebody else ferry the plane up and he bought it. Then he had a prop strike 15 hours later, when it went to our local Engine shop, yes, and there's been some problems from that guy, but the engine was just built, right?   But it had the wrong bearings in it. The rods were on upside down. The pistons are upside down. The ring gaps were all wrong, the previously chrome cylinders had no wall finish, and it was swallowing oil, and it had the wrong oil pressure, relief valve, and ball and spring, which is why the oil pressure was jumping around. What a nightmare that thing was. He did the prop strike inspection and put it back together with new cylinders and pistons and it's been OK since then. But the next engine I got from this guy was a freaking nightmare. I was 20 hours into warranty work fixing oil leaks, they put Loctite on the prop flange to keep oil off the windshield, which didn't do anything because it was the front seal.  We finally fixed that, and we removed all of the oil drain back to fittings from the cylinder head and had to put the proper sealer on those, and also an emergency landing at a military airbase because one of the fuel injector lines had snapped off, it literally took 20 pounds of torque to get the nut off of it, which is why they all were overstressed and one broke. We caught one of them over torqued and stripped out on the number four cylinder before we actually flew it, but this other stuff got past us. So we changed all those as well.  And then 50 hours later it's using oil so we took the cylinders off and all the cross hatch is gone. So we had those redone, and it's been good since then, but he basically had to do it twice and if you added it up all the money he spent he could've just gotten an engine from one of those big name shops.

[Schllc]

I have been in some type of service business almost my whole life. The last 25 in the construction of high end custom homes. 
When it comes to anything involving people, nothing is certain, sacred or off limits. 
I tell my clients you want to be the first born, the second wife and the third contractor. 
Reason is that people have to go through the first two to figure out how to avoid the lies and/or the ignorance. 
The relevance here, is too many people get distracted by the low bid, or sometime the high bid. Thinking the former is the only honest guy, or the former is the best just because of price. 
I fell for it a few times myself….

This doesn’t mean the low guy is always to be feared nor that the expensive guy is taking advantage.  
What it does mean is that if there is a big difference in price, one must figure out why before moving on. 
For me, in this instance an overhaul would be the only option because I’m not waiting two years, so who to pick?

One thing all good shops have in common is the culture is oriented for service and excellence. The culture is easy to suss out by a visit and conversation. The second step would be talking to an old client, a not so old client and a new client.  References are gold in these situations. 
All mechanical things are prone to issues and while we all hope to have none, when you do, is the guy who did your work going to be there?   Or more importantly do you want to go back to him?  
 

I would venture to bet if one could collect accurate statistics, the factory engines are likely a minimal amount better regarding defects, at least for the majority of reputable independents. But I don’t believe the percentage would be large enough to make me wait an extra six months, much less two years. 
 

My vote would be find a good shop and let’r rip.  Make sure they put new cylinders!!

[MikeOH]

21 minutes ago, Schllc said:

When it comes to anything involving people, nothing is certain, sacred or off limits. 
I tell my clients you want to be the first born, the second wife and the third contractor. 

LOL!....I'm still cleaning coffee off my keyboard