No Back Clutch Spring M20-282-0001 Eaton Kit Update Good News

[Will.iam]

For the mentally challenged which models have the eaton motor compared to the dukes?

 

[PT20J]

2 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

For the mentally challenged which models have the eaton motor compared to the dukes?

 

Mooney mixed and matched. But generally starting in 1978 it switched to the Eaton. Sometime later it also used a similar design made by Plessey. The Plesseys seem to have had more failures (maybe 3 or 4) than the Eatons (maybe one or two). There are no parts available for the Plessey actuators.

[MikeOH]

18 minutes ago, EricJ said:

 

It looks like Lasar just ordered them from existing Mooney drawings/specs/part numbers and is marking them up.   I'm reluctant to give them any credit for doing any engineering here.   

I'm even more cynical.  I think LASAR just managed to work a quote for minimum buy through Mooney whereby there is NO financial risk/cost to Mooney.

[PT20J]

Eaton makes a number of linear actuators for various airframe manufacturers. Mooney likely specified the requirements, but most likely Eaton owns the design and manufacturing drawings.

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/services/aero-repair-centers/grand-rapids/eaton-grand-rapids-repair-capabilities-list.pdf

[MikeOH]

29 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

My answer won’t help as i have a Dukes, but if they’re selling for $3k and you can make them for less, I say go for it!

I, too, have a Dukes.  Yet, both of us are commenting on this.

I do find it curious that neither you nor @N201MKTurbo will answer a simple, direct, question as to what price you WOULD find usurious.

[toto]

Just so everyone knows what we’re talking about … the no-back clutch spring is this little tiny thing. 

(Photo cropped from an earlier thread showing a used NBS for sale on eBay.)

 

Don Kaye has a bunch of other photos and info on his site:

https://donkaye.com/infamous-1500-back-spring

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

I, too, have a Dukes.  Yet, both of us are commenting on this.

I do find it curious that neither you nor @N201MKTurbo will answer a simple, direct, question as to what price you WOULD find usurious.

Back when I was a peak oil guy (I still am BTW) I would ask people what price gasoline would get to before they would stop buying it. Everybody looks at you funny and says “They can’t charge that much, I need my gas” Nobody would ever answer the question.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Just so everyone knows what we’re talking about … the no-back clutch spring is this little tiny thing. 

(Photo cropped from an earlier thread showing a used NBS for sale on eBay.)

 

Don Kaye has a bunch of other photos and info on his site:

https://donkaye.com/infamous-1500-back-spring

This is the best illustration.

It's like buying a $3,000 ring.....  You might as well be shopping at Tiffany's....

 

Edited October 22 by 1980Mooney

[ArtVandelay]

I, too, have a Dukes.  Yet, both of us are commenting on this.
I do find it curious that neither you nor [mention=7464]N201MKTurbo[/mention] will answer a simple, direct, question as to what price you WOULD find usurious.

If you NEED one to make your plane airworthy, take what you can sell it for and subtract salvage price.
Whether its the NBS, insurance, etc….at some point pilots will just sell their planes.

[Slick Nick]

8 hours ago, toto said:

There are many many threads on MS discussing the no-back spring. 

Basically, there’s a very small number of confirmed failures that resulted in gear-up landings, and the failures are mostly attributed to manufacturing defects in the springs themselves. The original bad batch was installed as original equipment from the factory, and at least one aircraft has had a failure in a replacement spring. 

The collective wisdom here I think is that your NBS is very unlikely to fail, and it’s probably low on the list of reasons Mooneys land gear-up.

Don Maxwell has been paraphrased here a number of times saying that they can tell at annual if a spring is chattering during gear swing tests and that you’ll know well before it fails.

And anecdotally, they seem to fail more often on retraction than extension (so you’re stuck with gear down, not with gear up). 

Thank you for the detailed information! I’m relatively new to the Mooney world, so looking to learn as much as I can.

[Pinecone]

I am mulling this over.

If the total price was under around $1500, I would probably buy one to have it if needed.  At $3000, I will just wait until I need one (if ever) and hope they are in stock.

LASAR holds the PMA, not Eaton, so they have to inspect and accept the parts, and then are in the liability chain, and may be the buck stops here point.

But over, I am glad to see them available.  As to how much is too much, if my aircraft is AOG for one, a LOT.

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Back when I was a peak oil guy (I still am BTW) I would ask people what price gasoline would get to before they would stop buying it. Everybody looks at you funny and says “They can’t charge that much, I need my gas” Nobody would ever answer the question.

Weird dodge to my question.  This is hardly the same situation, most of us really don't 'need' our planes.  It's a first world hobby.  "They", LASAR in this case, can absolutely charge that/too much!  As @ArtVandelay said, "at some point pilots will just sell their planes".  And, that point may not even be financial, per se.  As in, yeah I have the money but I've reached the point where I'm just not going to take it up the tail-pipe anymore.

I'm glad I don't own a Mooney with the NBS.  Honestly, I'd likely sell before spending $3,000 on that stupid little spring (plus installation, of course); that's my limit for being taken advantage of for that simple a part.

Maybe you just don't want to think about the price where "you'd walk"; hence, you can't answer my question??

[GeeBee]

There was a young man who was hired by his uncle as employment of last resort. He was a toothbrush salesman. His performance was so poor, his uncle said he had one month to improve or be fired. The next month he sold more toothbrushes than anyone, and for an average of $130 per brush. HIs uncle was so pleased, he asked what did he do to render such an unbelievable performance. He said;

"I set up a table at the airport with a bowl of chips and a bowl of chips. As pilots went by I asked them if they wanted to try the chips and dip. When they did they said the dip tasted like dog doo-doo. I said, it is dog doo-doo, wanna buy a toothbrush?"

[Will.iam]

Yes the thought of the spring failing is fearful but then when you ask what is the worse thing that could happen, as there have even been reports if the spring failing when the gear is down and Don Maxwells comment of the gear giving noise chatter before it fails really starts to persuade me to pass on replacing the spring then throw on if the spring fails and i do gear up landing my insurance will replace the prop tear down the engine for inspection, i can than add some money to make it an overhaul, it really does not behove me to proactively replace this spring. True my insurance will go up for awhile i will have damage history on the frame but if I’m keeping this plane until i quit flying, that’s not that important.  Laser has effectively priced this spring out to only the super worried or part 135 or commercial or the uninsured pilot. Everyone else will most likely take their chances given the excellent track record of the majority of springs that are still in service past their time. Sort of like running past TBO. 

[Will.iam]

45 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

 I could do without the threat of an imminent price increase in their initial product availability announcement, though, personally.  Especially when the initial price already seems exorbitant and represents such a large increase over previous pricing.  

Well if noone buys one they will most likely not raise the price, in fact given enough time they will lower it or take a full loss on this venture. 

[802flyer]

Weird dodge to my question.  This is hardly the same situation, most of us really don't 'need' our planes.  It's a first world hobby.  "They", LASAR in this case, can absolutely charge that/too much!  As [mention=11849]ArtVandelay[/mention] said, "at some point pilots will just sell their planes".  And, that point may not even be financial, per se.  As in, yeah I have the money but I've reached the point where I'm just not going to take it up the tail-pipe anymore.
I'm glad I don't own a Mooney with the NBS.  Honestly, I'd likely sell before spending $3,000 on that stupid little spring (plus installation, of course); that's my limit for being taken advantage of for that simple a part.
Maybe you just don't want to think about the price where "you'd walk"; hence, you can't answer my question??

I’m not sure anyone’s individual answer is all that relevant as I’m sure there would be some semblance of a bell curve; a small number of pilots might sell the plane rather than deal with it, a small number might shell out exorbitant money now to have one on their own shelf just in case, and everyone else will fall somewhere in the middle.

FWIW I completely share your outrage that a spring can cost this much but we’re kinda stuck. As others have said, there’s always a chance someone wants to PMA it and take the business away from LASAR at a lower price but I’m not holding my breath. Unfortunately $3k is comparatively small in the grand scheme of flying one’s forever plane for years and years. Certainly on par or less than the cost of acquiring a different plane and working through squawks.

Even though it’s a ridiculous number, I’m guessing the gears for my actuator will eventually cost more new. And I’d rather know there was an option on LASAR’s shelf.


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[MikeOH]

@802flyer

Agree one individual’s number is meaningless but I’m asking in hopes of understanding that pain point bell curve. I think it would be data to ascertain how likely LASAR is to sell at $3000

[EricJ]

8 hours ago, 802flyer said:

FWIW I completely share your outrage that a spring can cost this much but we’re kinda stuck. As others have said, there’s always a chance someone wants to PMA it and take the business away from LASAR at a lower price but I’m not holding my breath. 

There's also OPP.   Companies that make springs are not hard to find in the grand scheme of things.   If somebody is faced with no longer being able to justify repeated multiple AMU hits for small parts, it's always an option.

[Schllc]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@802flyer

Agree one individual’s number is meaningless but I’m asking in hopes of understanding that pain point bell curve. I think it would be data to ascertain how likely LASAR is to sell at $3000

If I had a trip planned, and this failure was the difference between going and not going, I’d be a lot more inclined to pay 3k.
However, if I had two planes, or no particular reason to fly in the next few weeks or months or years, my offense may prevent me from buying.   

I am not arguing with the ridiculousness of the price. It is just shy of offensive to me. 
It’s only shy because if this was the difference of my plane being unfixable because they aren’t available, or paying the money, you have to grin and bear it right?  
I mean there isn’t an alternative. 
I may have to buy it, but I can be unhappy about the price at the same time.

[MikeOH]

@Schllc

As @EricJ pointed out I would find a way to go OPP before I ever paid that kind of offensive price for that part!  I realize others may value their time more and are not offended by such predatory pricing.

[ArtVandelay]

There's also OPP.   Companies that make springs are not hard to find in the grand scheme of things.   If somebody is faced with no longer being able to justify repeated multiple AMU hits for small parts, it's always an option.

Where are you going to get the necessary data to reproduce the part: alloy, etc?

[MikeOH]

8 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Where are you going to get the necessary data to reproduce the part: alloy, etc?

From a sample part.  Compared to reverse engineering the worm gear set from a Dukes actuator, this single piece spring should be pretty easy.

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Where are you going to get the necessary data to reproduce the part: alloy, etc?

From a sample part or from determining requirements.   It is a No Back Spring, which is a common form of spring clutch, not particularly unique to Mooneys. 

This is all described in the various guidance documents for OPP.    Another alternative is to find the same part in a catalog somewhere.    The VARMA process highlights that it doesn't need to be FAA-PMA or TSO or anything, it just needs to be the same part.

It isn't a given that people have to pay outrageous prices to get a part.   The FAA has outlined multiple alternative paths that are specifically blessed by them to be able to source parts for vintage or other aircraft.   The oft-referenced presentation on OPP from the FAA by Don Dodge specifically lists high prices or long lead times as typical reasons for pursuing OPP.

[1980Mooney]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

 Another alternative is to find the same part in a catalog somewhere.    The VARMA process highlights that it doesn't need to be FAA-PMA or TSO or anything, it just needs to be the same part.
 

If only it was that easy.  That is like searching for the Holy Grail.  We have been looking for that "same part" for 25 years.   It does not exist......

[EricJ]

Just now, 1980Mooney said:

If only it was that easy.  That is like searching for the Holy Grail.  We have been looking for that "same part" for 25 years.   It does not exist......

Yes, it was just an example of alternative paths.

Another potential path is that somebody repurposes a new-design off-the-shelf (or even semi-custom) actuator that replaces the old ones and gets an STC.   We see so many similar actuators for other purposes this might be a practical path as well.    If that seems like overkill, then we're back to just duplicating a single spring, which is presumably a smaller task.   

I think $3k springs exist because most people aren't inclined to pursue alternatives for less, so maybe they're just pricing what they think the market will bear, or maybe they've overshot.   At some price the pain point is hit and people just go find their own.   Or give up.   That's always an option, too.