For those who have the SureFly

[Matthew P]

Decided on putting in the SureFly and getting rid of the left MAG and Shower of Sparks, A&P asked me if I wanted it configured standard or to allow for advanced timing at higher altitudes.....I've heard stories of issues with the advance timing and a few people on this forum, a few years ago recommended against it.....looking for more recent information incase they had an issue previously but have worked the bugs out. Yes, got new harnesses made (Maggie).

 

I appreciate your time.

[PT20J]

It's only a small amount of plumbing to connect the manifold pressure line from the #4 cylinder to the SureFly SIM. Why not have it connected and try it out? You can always go to fixed timing by a simple DIP switch setting in the SIM if you don't like it.

[Matthew P]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

It's only a small amount of plumbing to connect the manifold pressure line from the #4 cylinder to the SureFly SIM. Why not have it connected and try it out? You can always go to fixed timing by a simple DIP switch setting in the SIM if you don't like it.

I have had 2 people tell me that the advance timing messed up their engines, so that's the premise of my question/concern...it was quite a few years ago so not sure if it was a problem that was engineered out or if maybe theirs wasn't installed properly..

[MikeOH]

18 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

I have had 2 people tell me that the advance timing messed up their engines, so that's the premise of my question/concern...it was quite a few years ago so not sure if it was a problem that was engineered out or if maybe theirs wasn't installed properly..

Ask yourself (and SureFly) how much measurable performance improvement this 'advance timing' option is going to provide.  Then weigh it against even a small risk that it could damage your engine.

[M20F]

I put 2 sets of pistons on the MG dialing in the advance with the supercharger.  As @MikeOH points out it doesn’t give much and it can very quickly take a bunch.  

[McMooney]

My surefly has always been set for advanced timing, never had issues.  Don't remember hearing of any issues other than for turbo engines.

[00-Negative]

Just installed SureFly to replace my left mag last weekend. We set if for advanced timing. My initial startup after install was fine. However, a few days later, I went to startup and I think I almost immediately flooded the engine. Usually cold starts easily. I hammered on that starter for 25 minutes before it finally started. I will have to change my cold startup technique. Once it finally started, it ran like normal for a few laps in the pattern. I have not tried hot start yet. 

-David

[McMooney]

2 minutes ago, 00-Negative said:

Just installed SureFly to replace my left mag last weekend. We set if for advanced timing. My initial startup after install was fine. However, a few days later, I went to startup and I think I almost immediately flooded the engine. Usually cold starts easily. I hammered on that starter for 25 minutes before it finally started. I will have to change my cold startup technique. Once it finally started, it ran like normal for a few laps in the pattern. I have not tried hot start yet. 

-David

the advanced timing doesn't kick in till at altitude with reduced manifold pressures, won't impact starting at all.

[McMooney]

not for us specifically but is kinda interesting : Kitplanes Feature (danhorton.net)

 

[00-Negative]

38 minutes ago, McMooney said:

the advanced timing doesn't kick in till at altitude with reduced manifold pressures, won't impact starting at all.

We removed the shower of sparks. I would think it would have some impact on starting. 

[00-Negative]

Meaning I don't think the advanced timing has any effect on starting. I'm pointing out that the  change to the SureFly itself changed my engine starting characteristics. 

[PT20J]

10 hours ago, Matthew P said:

I have had 2 people tell me that the advance timing messed up their engines, so that's the premise of my question/concern...it was quite a few years ago so not sure if it was a problem that was engineered out or if maybe theirs wasn't installed properly..

Defined "messed up."

SureFly emulates an impulse coupling mag for starting. Spark will be hotter. Should start easier. 

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, Matthew P said:

I have had 2 people tell me that the advance timing messed up their engines, so that's the premise of my question/concern...it was quite a few years ago so not sure if it was a problem that was engineered out or if maybe theirs wasn't installed properly..

I have had mine for ~4 years and 400 hours.  I have had the advance timing set on the entire time.  I would do it exactly the same again.  The SF has been great, and the advance timing gives a measurable increase in speed at higher altitudes when lean of peak.  Rich of peak, well it’s there but not really much.  I have not had temp issues unless i try to run peak at high altitudes and hot oat.  I have a good engine monitor to back this up.  
 

We did put mine on the left and remove the sos but apparently it’s an option to put it on tge right and rewire the key to start on both mags.

[philiplane]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Defined "messed up."

SureFly emulates an impulse coupling mag for starting. Spark will be hotter. Should start easier. 

A Surefly is even better than an impulse coupling, because it has full voltage available the moment the engine turns. It doesn't even need a half turn or more like an impulse coupling or shower of sparks. 

I had impulse coupled mags, and no starting issues hot or cold, but with the Surefly, the starts are exceptionally fast. As soon as the prop turns, it's running.

[MikeOH]

@Ragsf15e

Can you quantify the increase in speed you see at altitude and LOP?

[Ragsf15e]

29 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@Ragsf15e

Can you quantify the increase in speed you see at altitude and LOP?

Yes. Here’s my original thread on it.  I have much more data now and it’s ~3kts at 10,000’ when lean of peak. Obviously that’s an average because cg, temp, weight play a big role.  On the charts you will see there’s no change down lower since there’s no advance.

  

[MikeOH]

@Ragsf15e

Thanks.

Sounds like you're happy with your purchase.  I assume starts (especially hot) are easier?  What was your motivation to buy an electronic mag to begin with?  Was a 3 kt improvement what motivated you, expected more/less?

Since aviation engines are stationary I've just never seen the real advantage in terms of performance and I've learned to manage starts...combine that with a career as a EE:  I just don't trust electronics as the 'be all, end all' solution to everything!  Getting rid of a 500 hour mag OH interval is just not that important to me given I fly <100 hours/year.  In fact, I kind of like the idea of examining and replacing worn parts periodically on something as critical as a mag.  Electronic mags have always seemed to me to be a bit of a complicated solution in search of a problem

[Ragsf15e]

16 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@Ragsf15e

Thanks.

Sounds like you're happy with your purchase.  I assume starts (especially hot) are easier?  What was your motivation to buy an electronic mag to begin with?  Was a 3 kt improvement what motivated you, expected more/less?

Since aviation engines are stationary I've just never seen the real advantage in terms of performance and I've learned to manage starts...combine that with a career as a EE:  I just don't trust electronics as the 'be all, end all' solution to everything!  Getting rid of a 500 hour mag OH interval is just not that important to me given I fly <100 hours/year.  In fact, I kind of like the idea of examining and replacing worn parts periodically on something as critical as a mag.  Electronic mags have always seemed to me to be a bit of a complicated solution in search of a problem

Well I was at a 500 hr oh anyway, so that made it feel like a good time.  It does start a little easier but I never really had a problem with that. One really nice thing that I didn’t anticipate is that the timing never slips. It always has about a 30 to 50 RPM drop on a mag check. It’s been that way for ~5 years with zero change.  No mx is nice!

[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, 00-Negative said:

We removed the shower of sparks. I would think it would have some impact on starting. 

Your old SOS system had a mag with retard breaker that fired at TDC.

Your new Surefly fires at TDC any time the engine is running at less than 400rpm.  

If everything is working as it should, there should be no noticeable difference. 
 

If I were to install a Surefly, I’d likely install it on the right side and keep my SOS system.

[donkaye]

1. Went into Annual with a working normal and hot starting engine.

2. Came out of Annual with an engine that would not hot start.   Found out some parts that had been changed on the 500 hour left mag overhaul last year, while legal PMA's parts, were not Slick parts.  Changed to Slick parts.  Changed the ignition switch.  Got a nice new key.  Helped, but still didn't hot start reliably.  Gave up on the old mag and ordered a new one.  After it was put on, but before it was started, we discussed the SureFly SIM.  Had them halt everything and replaced the new unused mag with a SureFly and sent the new mag back.  I think some parts on the original mag that should have been changed were not last year.

3. The SureFly SIM is unbelievable.  The plane has never started better, either hot or cold.  In fact, it seems to start like a turbine; turn the key and it just starts.  As I have a turbo, there is no advance.  I don't care.  Attended MooneyMax 2024 this year and the salesman from Electroair said the SureFly was just a mag replacement.  I thought, "well, that's what I want".  The Electroair was much more expensive and with an experienced installer, 3 days to install.  The SureFly installs just like a mag with the exception of needing a wire to the battery and a different resistor to the ignition switch for the MVP-50 engine monitor.  Add 6 hours.

4. The cost of the Surefly is a little less than the cost of a new "regular" mag.

5. Bottom line, one of the best things I have done for my airplane this year.

[McMooney]

14 hours ago, 00-Negative said:

Meaning I don't think the advanced timing has any effect on starting. I'm pointing out that the  change to the SureFly itself changed my engine starting characteristics. 

that's true, i kept my sos but have noticed it'll start even without it.

[phxcobraz]

I did the Surefly mostly for the easier starting. Have not been disappointed. I had a bad left mag at the time and rather than overhaul a Slick I opted for the Surefly. 
The advanced timing causes no issues, but also I don’t notice any speed increases. I do notice a bit of CHT increase which is expected for the increased efficiency in ignition. 
 

M20C

[Ragsf15e]

38 minutes ago, phxcobraz said:

I did the Surefly mostly for the easier starting. Have not been disappointed. I had a bad left mag at the time and rather than overhaul a Slick I opted for the Surefly. 
The advanced timing causes no issues, but also I don’t notice any speed increases. I do notice a bit of CHT increase which is expected for the increased efficiency in ignition. 
 

M20C

I think you’d have to fly at higher altitudes and LOP to see much benefit from the advance. @N201MKTurbo gave me a masters class in why there’s a difference in lop w advance and none rop but I forgot most of what he said.  Seeing that you have an M20C, Im guessing you’re not LOP.

[phxcobraz]

10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I think you’d have to fly at higher altitudes and LOP to see much benefit from the advance. @N201MKTurbo gave me a masters class in why there’s a difference in lop w advance and none rop but I forgot most of what he said.  Seeing that you have an M20C, Im guessing you’re not LOP.

Correct. Can’t really run it LOP and even at 11-12k I haven’t noticed any difference. 
the price difference isn’t much from a normal mag and with the 2400hr “overhaul” the ongoing cost is also significantly cheaper. 

[philiplane]

Surefly has timing advance based on MP and RPM. The Electroair only uses MP, and only advances below 25" MP.