77 J heavy in pitch

[Grant_Waite]

Just closed on my 77J and got my official check out Friday. On rotation and flare I couldn’t help but notice that it’s ungodly heavy in pitch, compared to what I’m use to. About all my hours are in 172s, specifically a 172xp. A few in an arrow and tecnam for my multi. All of which aren’t the Mooney pushrod design. Is this a common thing on Mooneys? Or do I need to get better at adjusting the trim? I’ve found having the trim set to one bar higher on the indicator helps on rotation, but then need to aggressively trim down once air born. The gentleman who checked me out has 7000 hours in Mooneys and he was impressed by how well it flew and was rigged. He said it was the nicest 77j he’d ever seen. I absolutely love the plane, just to get more proficient. 

[PT20J]

That’s normal. Every different airplane has a different feel. Try starting the takeoff roll with 15 deg flaps and the trim set within the takeoff range and about a 5 lb pull on the yoke. Hold the pull as the airplane accelerates. When the nose begins to rotate, slowly release the pressure until you have a climb attitude of about 7 deg nose up (it will appear flatter than a C-172). There will be a significant nose down trim needed when you raise the flaps. Practice makes perfect. Enjoy an happy new year!

Skip

[blaine beaven]

A lot of pilots who have most of their time on light Cessnas (172/150 etc) get away with not being proactive on trim. 
 

A Mooney has to be trimmed. All the time. This is the same as any other heavier single or light twin. Get used to it, and get proficient at it. You’ll love how solid the plane feels in cruise compared to lighter aircraft. Have fun! 

[SKI]

I've recently transitioned to a new to me J as well. All my time was in 172's and Cherokee's. Exactly the same thoughts as you about being heavy in pitch on rotation. My instructor said it's normal as well as the others here. I got in the habit of raising the gear then raise the flaps right after the gear and trim once for the cruise speed you want and away you go.  

[N201MKTurbo]

What’s even worse is flying Mooneys for decades and then getting in a Cessna and thinking the elevator is broke, and wondering why they bothered with a trim wheel.

[kortopates]

If controls are heavy on landing, then the plane isn’t properly trimmed for hands off at approach speed. Until mastering trim your much more likely to prop strike it and will have very inconsistent landings as you hunt for the proper flare pitch.


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[EricJ]

+1 that flare shouldn't be bad unless it is out of trim.

Mooney controls are a bit heavy compared to some airplanes, but it makes you smooth and encourages you to stay ahead of the airplane.   If you do that your control inputs are generally small and you only feel the heaviness if you screw up.       That all just comes with time and practice.

[PT20J]

The M20J elevators are heavier (than a Cherokee or Skyhawk) when slightly out of trim because of the trim assist bungees. The Mooney ailerons are heavier due to the short control wheel throw, the short span/wide chord aileron design and the aileron-rudder interconnect. The Mooney also seems less pitch stable at 1.2-1.3 Vso which makes it take a bit more work to hold precise airspeed. But, with practice, we all get used to it. 

When I have checked people out there are three things that I have found to help: 1) if the airplane has electric trim, don’t use it at first. It is easier to get the feel for trimming with the manual trim. 2)Practice airspeed and configuration changes at altitude before starting pattern work. 3) Fly a wider traffic pattern with a longer final to give yourself more time to nail the airspeed and trim. 

Skip

 

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, Grant_Waite said:

Just closed on my 77J and got my official check out Friday. On rotation and flare I couldn’t help but notice that it’s ungodly heavy in pitch, compared to what I’m use to. About all my hours are in 172s, specifically a 172xp. A few in an arrow and tecnam for my multi. All of which aren’t the Mooney pushrod design. Is this a common thing on Mooneys? Or do I need to get better at adjusting the trim? I’ve found having the trim set to one bar higher on the indicator helps on rotation, but then need to aggressively trim down once air born. The gentleman who checked me out has 7000 hours in Mooneys and he was impressed by how well it flew and was rigged. He said it was the nicest 77j he’d ever seen. I absolutely love the plane, just to get more proficient. 

One other thing… Mooneys are very hard to get outside the weight and balance envelope, but 2 adults in the front seat with nothing behind them in the back or baggage is very noticeable.  Trim will help a lot, but I can still feel the difference when loaded near the front of the envelope.  Put something heavy in the back and it’ll feel different.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What’s even worse is flying Mooneys for decades and then getting in a Cessna and thinking the elevator is broke, and wondering why they bothered with a trim wheel.

I have quite a few hours in a 150.  Not sure I ever used the trim.

[Shadrach]

As stated above, trim to neutral on approach. Full flaps require more nose up trim. If CG is in he forward part of the envelope (light on fuel and nothing in the back seats or baggage) you can run right up against the nose up trim limit. That only happens with weight in the front seats and minimum fuel.  You won’t even notice it in another 20hours. 

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I have quite a few hours in a 150.  Not sure I ever used the trim.

I recall the 150F I flew in training taking some nose down trim as flaps were deployed (opposite of a Mooney), especially with the flaps at 40°.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I had to think about this for a minute because I’ve never noticed my plane having heavy controls but then realized in regards to pitch I fly the plane nearly completely with the trim wheel.   I tend to take off with a little more nose up trim which makes for an easy lift off and will give me 80 mph in the air.    After gear up and flaps up I trim to 100 for the climb out,  the normal takeoff trim setting probably gives you the 100 mph but will require more back pressure to get it to lift off the runway.  I think either way is fine, it’s a matter of preference.  

[PT20J]

22 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I have quite a few hours in a 150.  Not sure I ever used the trim.

Then you must never have used 40 degrees of flaps 

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I had to think about this for a minute because I’ve never noticed my plane having heavy controls but then realized in regards to pitch I fly the plane nearly completely with the trim wheel.   I tend to take off with a little more nose up trim which makes for an easy lift off and will give me 80 mph in the air.    After gear up and flaps up I trim to 100 for the climb out,  the normal takeoff trim setting probably gives you the 100 mph but will require more back pressure to get it to lift off the runway.  I think either way is fine, it’s a matter of preference.  

It feels like a stick in the mud compared to many other makes. It’s not designed for yanking and banking but once you’re used to it, it feels fine. While heavy, there is no wasted movement, very precise.

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Then you must never have used 40 degrees of flaps 

Actually, most every landing.  Discrepancy may be attributable to poor memory.

[EricJ]

24 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Then you must never have used 40 degrees of flaps 

The other thing that was fun in a C150 is to fly an entire pattern and land it without ever touching the yoke.    Totally do-able.   Bored teenager days. 

[Fly Boomer]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The other thing that was fun in a C150 is to fly an entire pattern and land it without ever touching the yoke.    Totally do-able.   Bored teenager days. 

Watched an "old man" (45-year-old?) fly a 150 for 5 minutes without leaving the confines of the runway -- and not in the manner that first comes to mind.  He flew one direction in ground effect, pulled it straight up followed by a wingover when airspeed was near zero, dove straight down to the runway, pulled out in ground effect, and did it again at the other end.  It was one of those things that makes your heart race even though you aren't in any danger.  His son and I each lost $5 on that bet.

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The other thing that was fun in a C150 is to fly an entire pattern and land it without ever touching the yoke.    Totally do-able.   Bored teenager days. 

I never tried that - now I feel like I missed out. 

I worked the summer of 1985 for a flight school at Merrill Field in Anchorage. It had a contract to fly over the natural gas pipeline that encircles the city every morning and note construction equipment near the gas main so that a gas company crew could make sure they knew where the main was. Apparently, it had been dug up so many times that it was cost effective to pay for the flights. Anyway, pilots got paid by the hour and the contract was apparently fixed price, so we were encouraged to 'get 'er done' and get back as fast as possible. It was great fun the come roaring down final in a C-150 at 120 knots and then chop the power slow to the white arc, drop 40 degrees of flaps, touch down on the numbers, and make the first turnoff adjacent the flight school.

Skip

[Fly Boomer]

4 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I never tried that - now I feel like I missed out. 

I worked the summer of 1985 for a flight school at Merrill Field in Anchorage. It had a contract to fly over the natural gas pipeline that encircles the city every morning and note construction equipment near the gas main so that a gas company crew could make sure they knew where the main was. Apparently, it had been dug up so many times that it was cost effective to pay for the flights. Anyway, pilots got paid by the hour and the contract was apparently fixed price, so we were encouraged to 'get 'er done' and get back as fast as possible. It was great fun the come roaring down final in a C-150 at 120 knots and then chop the power slow to the white arc, drop 40 degrees of flaps, touch down on the numbers, and make the first turnoff adjacent the flight school.

Skip

Oh, the things we (used to) do for fun.  Maxwell told me once that sometimes he comes screaming into the pattern at 200 knots just to freak out the tower people.

[amillet]

With no passengers in the back or weight in the baggage compartment, my take off trim is well above the takeoff trim line. It does require trimming down when flaps are retracted 

[A64Pilot]

IF you trim for hands off at the bottom of the approach you need to practice with a full throttle go-around.

Hint be prepared for excessive nose up pitching moment, if your prepared for it and have at least moderate upper body strength you can handle it, some weren’t and didn’t. I’m sure it’s why some have stalled Mooney’s on a go-around.

If you think a Mooney is heavy in pitch, then you have never flown a C-210, with just two in the front seat it’s way heavier than a Mooney.

Mooneys are heavy on the controls in my opinion because of the small control throws. I measured aileron throw the other day and if memory serves it was less than half my C-140, I didn’t measure elevator throw but bet it’s the same, without pedal extenders a Mooney has you sitting very close to the panel, you simply couldn’t have the control travel of a Cessna your chest is in the way, and that lack of travel means higher forces of course.

Its the limited control travel that’s the reason of the myth of sports car like handling, in truth they are without being disrespectful but sort of doggy, especially in roll.

It’s not supposed to handle like a Pitts though, it’s a stable cross country traveller and flown that way it’s plenty responsive.

Frankly I’m at a loss to try to explain prop strikes. Every GA airplane I know of should be landed on the mains and the nose wheel kept in the air until it slowly comes down on its own, they should never be three pointed, landed flat whatever you call it. If you land and carry the nose in the air I don’t know how you could wheelbarrow or porpoise and prop strike.

If your too fast, go around, never try to salvage a bad approach, just isn’t worth it.

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

The other thing that was fun in a C150 is to fly an entire pattern and land it without ever touching the yoke.    Totally do-able.   Bored teenager days. 

You can put your arms out and make decent turns. I’ve heard open the doors but surely that excessive.

My C-140 and the early 150’s have identical fuselages, in fact the very early 150’s still have the 140 gear box in them, because they were 140’s, but Cessna had a whole bunch of unsold 140’s they didn’t want more.

Cessna built over 7,600 of them in five years.

[PT20J]

Prop strikes can come from trying to save a bounced landing and the resulting PIO. The prop hits pavement on the third touchdown after the second bounce. If you have enough runway, you can save a bounce by adding power and resetting the pitch attitude, but the safest course is to go around, get your wits about you, and try again. 

[ArtVandelay]

Its the limited control travel that’s the reason of the myth of sports car like handling, in truth they are without being disrespectful but sort of doggy, especially in roll.

I thought it was because of the springs (bungee assist)?