Prospective M20 buyer looking for avionics advice

[DCarlton]

10 hours ago, Z W said:

I did my IFR rating in a M20C with a non-WAAS GNS-430.  It is a great little GPS unit and you can fly lots of places with it.  But GPS approaches being limited to lateral guidance only is a big limitation.

Upgrading to WAAS is worth it, however you do it.  Having a glideslope into any small airport in the United States adds a huge comfort and safety factor for IFR flight.  No more pitch, power, or configuration changes at each step down point while you're bouncing along in the clouds, trying to remember if this step down was 1800 feet or 1600 feet.  Just drop the gear, hit the final approach fix, and fly the needles until your decision altitude.  

My comment I guess may be less true for a plane with a GNS-430 than a plane lacking any certified GPS navigator, but a plane without WAAS still shows well over a decade of not upgrading the panel to the latest and safest technology.  Not a deal breaker, but it would still be a red flag to me if I were shopping. 

Having experienced two vacuum-driven AI failures in flight, I feel the same way about a plane that still exclusively has those too.  It may be IFR certified, but I don't consider it IFR safe, or even reasonable now that G5's, GI-275's, or even the Dynon D3 pocket panels exist.  We probably don't even know how many lives solid state AHRS units have saved since they became available.

If I had to guess, I'd say you're probably 20 years younger than me.  I learned to fly in the mid-80s with an ADF/VOR/ILS.  GPS still seems like a luxury to me.  I have a friend that still has an ADF and Loran in his airplane; he's a geeky EE and just likes it and doesn't want to remove it.  I don't fly as much as some, but since the mid-80s, I've never experienced a vacuum failure (but yes I know it happens and I've had one TC and one DG failure not vac related).  I am not at all convinced the latest technology is the greatest (especially where software is involved).  The digital AIs have all had major issues after fielding.  Are the bugs out?  Do you know for sure?  Sandia took theirs off the market.  Uavionix had issues initially and so did Garmin.  Just a few weeks ago, someone report issues during startup with an AV30.  Flying with minimal dependency on software and data base updates is a great thing to me.  Don't get me wrong, WAAS is great and I may install a digital AI at some point but in the 35 years I've been flying, I've never been to an airport in IFR conditions that didn't have a VOR, LOC, or ILS approach as a backup to GPS.  Call me ole fashioned.  

[toto]

9 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I guess I haven't fully absorbed the idea that all-electric is safer than vacuum.  I'm sure there are many motivations to get rid of vacuum, but I had not considered the idea that a vacuum-only AI in IMC is equivalent to no AI.  Are there statistics that support this idea?  I read a lot, but have not read a comparison of safety.

I despise vacuum-driven instruments today, given all of the better options we have. But I’ve had a number of vacuum pump failures in my flying career, and they normally give you some notice. Even when the pump fully fails, your AI typically continues giving attitude indications — it gets increasingly sluggish while the gyro slowly winds down, but you don’t go from “working” to “not working” immediately. 

Still, I’d strongly advise having some kind of AHARS backup if you’ve got a vacuum AI in the panel. A Stratus or FS210 or Dynon Pocket Panel would be a welcome sight when the vacuum shoots craps. 
 

[toto]

7 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

If I had to guess, I'd say you're probably 20 years younger than me.  I learned to fly in the mid-80s with an ADF/VOR/ILS.  GPS still seems like a luxury to me.  I have a friend that still has an ADF and Loran in his airplane; he's a geeky EE and just likes it and doesn't want to remove it.  I don't fly as much as some, but since the mid-80s, I've never experienced a vacuum failure (but yes I know it happens).  I am not at all convinced the latest technology is the greatest (especially where software is involved).  The digital AIs have all had major issues after fielding.  Are the bugs out?  Do you know for sure?  Sandia took theirs off the market.  Uavionix had issues initially and so did Garmin.  Just a few weeks ago, someone report issues during startup with an AV30.  Flying with minimal dependency on software and data base updates is a great thing to me.  Don't get me wrong, WAAS is great and I may install a digital AI at some point but in the 35 years I've been flying, I've never been to an airport in IFR conditions that didn't have a VOR, LOC, or ILS approach as a backup to GPS.  Call me ole fashioned.  

I’m not yet ready to put my old LORAN receiver back in the panel, but the government is definitely concerned about over-reliance on GNSS, and one of the top contenders for an RNAV backup is E-LORAN.. everything old is new again

https://gps.stanford.edu/research/early-gpspnt-research/enhanced-long-range-navigation-eloran

[DCarlton]

2 minutes ago, toto said:

I’m not yet ready to put my old LORAN receiver back in the panel, but the government is definitely concerned about over-reliance on GNSS, and one of the top contenders for an RNAV backup is E-LORAN.. everything old is new again

https://gps.stanford.edu/research/early-gpspnt-research/enhanced-long-range-navigation-eloran

Cool thanks.  I'll forward that to my EE buddy.  We're both former DOD engineers.  

[toto]

2 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Cool thanks.  I'll forward that to my EE buddy.  We're both former DOD engineers.  

Here’s the direct link to the presentation. 

https://web.stanford.edu/group/scpnt/jse_website/documents/Enhanced_Loran_rv2-short.pdf

[DCarlton]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:10 AM, hubcap said:

I genuinely hope you get your plane back in 10 weeks. Please let us know how it goes.
 

I paid for 100% of the hardware and it was ordered in April. All of the hardware was on hand before the upgrade was started. Myrtle went in for upgrade the 15th of October with the commitment that she would be complete the end of January. At the end of January, we had a meeting and the commitment was made that she would be complete by March 29th.
 

She was finally completed April 30th. 
 

I guess they figure that you being happy is optional because you aren’t going to be a repeat customer.

Curious.  How much longer did it take you to flight test the new panel in VFR conditions, learn how to update the software and install data bases, review the manuals and get comfortable and confident operating in IFR conditions?  

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Curious.  How much longer did it take you to flight test the new panel in VFR conditions, learn how to update the software and install data bases, review the manuals and get comfortable and confident operating in IFR conditions?  

I already had a GTN 650, so there was no learning curve there. I did all the Garmin online training available for the G3x and the GFC 500 before I got my plane back. I was already familiar with updating the databases from my previous equipment.

I did two separate VFR flights and shot 7 approaches. I took a couple of trips in VMC and one short trip that was in IMC but didn’t require an approach.

Right after, I attended the MAPA class in Lexington and got some more good training and approaches while there.

So I was at least 20 hrs into it before I shot an approach in IMC down to 400’.

Understanding and getting comfortable using VNAV probably took the longest for me. 

 

[201Mooniac]

19 hours ago, DCarlton said:

 in the 35 years I've been flying, I've never been to an airport in IFR conditions that didn't have a VOR, LOC, or ILS approach as a backup to GPS. 

Well that isn't the case for me as my home field of KRHV only has GPS approaches, there are no other options to get home in IFR conditions.  We used to be able to do the ILS into KSJC and break off and continue special VFR into KRHV if the ceiling cooperated but that hasn't been approved in probably more than 15 years.

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

Well that isn't the case for me as my home field of KRHV only has GPS approaches, there are no other options to get home in IFR conditions.  We used to be able to do the ILS into KSJC and break off and continue special VFR into KRHV if the ceiling cooperated but that hasn't been approved in probably more than 15 years.

Understand.  Lots of different operating environments.  Makes WAAS a near must in your case.  I'm hoping the ILS at my home airport never shuts down (although it's OOS now until Nov).  

[Pinecone]

My home field only had RNAV approaches.  It has never had any other types of approaches

[Skates97]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:48 PM, RescueMunchkin said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for an M20 as my first plane. Want a WAAS enabled IFR panel, electronic engine monitoring.  My dilemma is to look for a cheaper plane without modern avionics and do the upgrading myself, or to go straight into one that has at least a Garmin 430w.

Does anyone also have a good sense of the cost for a modern panel WAAS enabled gps and G5 for AI/airspeed/altitude if upgrading from something completely original?  Or if there are less expensive or better options than those?

Thanks!

I bought the most plane I could afford and then saved up money. The most "modern" avionics it had was a Narco MK12D radio... I put in dual G5's and a GNC355 along with a GTX355 for ADS-B out and a PMA450B audio panel. I did all the work myself under supervision of my AP/IA. The garmin stuff uses a CANBUS which helps with the installation. The transponder was first to get ADS-B compliant and I think I was down about a week working in the evening after work and all day on a Saturday. A few years later when I did the G5's and the GNC355 I was down a couple weeks, again working on it in the evenings and I think a couple all day Saturdays. I also put in a PMA450B audio panel at the same time. I will admit there were a few times looking at all the wires and wondering how much it would cost me if I had to pay someone to put it all back together.

In the end, I just went slow, everything worked, and I was glad to save the money and downtime on the installation.

[Flash]

On 10/8/2023 at 8:38 AM, 201Mooniac said:

Well that isn't the case for me as my home field of KRHV only has GPS approaches, there are no other options to get home in IFR conditions.  We used to be able to do the ILS into KSJC and break off and continue special VFR into KRHV if the ceiling cooperated but that hasn't been approved in probably more than 15 years.

That technique still works for non-WAAS planes when the weather is 1000 or 1100 overcast, which is below non-WAAS minimums for the RNAV approaches into KRHV but high enough that you don't need a special VFR and can just cancel. But after holding out for 23 years of Mooney ownership, I finally broke down and got WAAS and so (as long as it's functioning) shouldn't have to use that technique again.

[Echo]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:25 AM, 0TreeLemur said:

@RescueMunchkin you ask a great question.   As someone who has followed these threads for several years, I have learned:

1.  Buy as much Mooney as you can afford that suits your mission.

2.  It makes more sense to let the previous owner eat the labor and depreciation associated with a panel upgrade than to have it done yourself - Unless you are very set on what avionics you want and how they are laid out in the panel. 

1+2 = 3.  Buy a Mooney with a panel that has been updated and that meets your needs.  I fully agree with previous statements that if a Mooney doesn't have a WAAS GPS, that's a bad sign, unless logbooks indicate frequent use and good, steady maintenance, and selling at a significant discount.

The Mooney we upgraded to last year has an Avidyne IFD540 gnss navigator and a single Aspen, both connect to a KFC-150 A/P.    This combination does everything our mission requires.

Bonus: The prior owner paid to reseal the tanks and strip/paint the aircraft in the last 5 years.   That's at least $20k ($30k?) of upgrades that we won't have to pay for!

How much did the plane cost? (Then I will agree or disagree on whether you "paid" for the upgrades. 

[mooneyflyfast]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:22 AM, ZuluZulu said:

It's WAY cheaper to buy a plane that already has nice avionics than to have them all put in yourself.  Once they're installed, the plane is worth the additional value of the avionics (roughly 50% of the retail price according to an airplane lender I talked to), but only the person installing them ever pays the installation labor cost plus the retail cost.  That doesn't get recouped when you sell.  So, long story short, when you have avionics installed, it is not a dollar-for-dollar value add, in fact it's only a fraction of the total spend going into the hull value/sales price.  As others have already said, you only want to do the avionics upgrades yourself if you want total control over what goes in and don't mind paying for the privilege.

Since I'm selling my plane after putting dual G5s, GFC 500, and more into it, I know this only too well.   

Is it listed somewhere?

[ZuluZulu]

1 hour ago, mooneyflyfast said:

Is it listed somewhere?

Yes, right here:

 

[bcg]

I'm 9 weeks into what I expected to be a 6 week project doing some avionics work to my plane as part of my annual. I'm doing the work myself and I can say this, the next plane I buy will have the avionics I want in it already, even if I have to look for 2 years to find it. This has been a HUGE project, it will be really nice when it's done but, I don't ever want to do it again. If I was having to pay someone to do everything I've done, it wouldn't be financially feasible, not as in I couldn't afford it but, as in the plane wouldn't be worth the expense. I easily have 120 hours into this project and I don't think I'm moving and slower than a tech would be. I'm doing more than a shop would as well though, I pulled all the old wire out (that was 30 hours alone), removed all old equipment, labeled every new wire that went back in on both ends and just generally did everything I could to make it easier to work on later.

So...I say buy a plane equipped the way you want it, so t buy cheap and plan to upgrade. I can assure you that the cheap plane will be more expensive, in time and money, when you're done with the upgrades.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Pinecone]

Only thing is, if you buy a plane with everything you want installed, what happens when you have to go behind the panel and find a mess there?????

 

[Fly Boomer]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:41 AM, Pinecone said:

Many of the electric instruments have battery back up.  The G-5 has a 4+ hour battery.  The 275 is shorter.  And any electric AI is required to have a backup.  With a G3X you have to have a G-5 or 275.  With two G-5s or 275s, they revert, so if the AI fails, the MFD becomes an AI without any intervention from the pilot.

With the G3X and G-5, the autopilot also reverts, but you have to reengage it.

I am considering having a battery backup installed during my upcoming upgrade to power the G3X and a GPS/nav/com.   

Did you remove your standby vacuum pump?

[Pinecone]

Entire vacuum system, including standby, was removed before I bought the plane.

[Echo]

On 9/30/2023 at 6:59 AM, Z W said:

In the current market, I would be wary of a plane that doesn't even have a WAAS GPS installed.  It's usually a sign the plane has sat, not been used, and not been maintained.  Maybe not so true in a VFR bush plane or a trainer, but in a M20, which was built for cross-country cruising, it's a red flag.

Also, it's a terrible time to be trying to upgrade your panel.  Avionics shops have been so busy they can't get all the work done for about the last 3-4 years.  Combination of a hot airplane market and all kinds of new awesome avionics being released at relatively affordable prices.  Been waiting for a slot at our shop for over 6 months to have a 430W swapped for a GTN650.  They say it'll be December, unless someone cancels on them sooner.

I would say try to buy something with at least a WAAS GPS and fly it for a while so you can know what you want, and continue to fly it, before you upgrade anything.

Yes, by all means do your due diligence, but VFR pilots (like me) recognize the value of a well maintained and modded vintage Mooney.  Some will perhaps value a whiz bang panel with GTN650 over a low time engine that has been flown and an airframe with speed mods like 201 speed slope windshield and 201 cowl.  If you have a plane with both you will pay an amount of money to buy in and purchase some guys dream plane vs. doing upgrades that YOU want.  Finding the "perfect" plane is extremely difficult and finding "it" for a deal is super rare.  My VFR plane is getting flown and maintained.  VFR cross-country is a thing, FYI.

[RescueMunchkin]

On 9/29/2023 at 1:10 PM, toto said:

You could always get a Dynon Pocket Panel. Less than 1AMU and zero install cost. 

That would buy you some time to gain experience in the aircraft and make avionics decisions down the road. 

https://dynonavionics.com/pocket-panel.php

Not closed on my plane yet, but already picked this up and it seems perfect so far! After the sticker shock of a $30k quote for dual GI-275s with engine monitoring, I'm going to stick with the vacuum system first.  Thank you for the recommendation @toto

[Pinecone]

Heck, at $30K I would be looking at a 10" G3X.

[ArtVandelay]

Heck, at $30K I would be looking at a 10" G3X.

With money left over, some of the quotes I see posted makes me wonder where the shops find suckers, I mean customers.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

With money left over, some of the quotes I see posted makes me wonder where the shops find suckers, I mean customers.

VERY true.  Someone on a forum was being quoted something over $30,000 for a GFC-500 install.