Help choosing a Mooney to commute in Central/Western MT (Ovation/Bravo/Acclaim?)

[dkkim73]

Mooneyspace post

Hello Everyone, 

I'm new to this forum, although I have been lurking and reading for a couple of weeks. 

Posting to ask for thoughts on potential choices for a plane to use for: 
-Commuting in central-western Montana over the next 18-24 months, between Billings and Hamilton (so KBIL to KHRF or KMSO), as weather allows
-General family trips in the region, a secondary and less often consideration, more so after that period in 2-3 yrs, which may extend further and will primarily involve western WA (Puget Sound) and Utah (SLC/OGD area)

I started looking at a range of aircraft and settled quickly into looking for FIKI singles with TKS (currently I am only ASEL-instrument rated and a twin would add a lot of issues), and most likely turbocharged. The Mooneys seemed to rise above Cirrus and Bonanzas for a combination of cost and reliability while still being FIKI. 

Questions for the group and things I am pondering: 

-Any thoughts from people who've flown in this region? 
    Note I am not looking to fly "in all conditions". I'm probably going to expand my operating envelope carefully, and run the trip with go/no-go parameters driven by wx briefs. Fallback is the car or scheduled commercial via 2 hops.

-Trade-offs between Ovation (2DX probably) - Bravo - Acclaim for this role
    I've read the main thread here about the Ovation/Acclaim comparison. Have also spoken to a couple of very knowledgeable and kind gentlemen (who I think may also be on the forum) who shared some thoughts on the models. 

    Q: If dealing with the Bravo's complexity and maintenance cost to get a turbo, does the Acclaim make more sense (assuming can work the cost)? 
    Q: Some have opined that the Acclaim can be flown in different ways. Can the Acclaim be flown "gently" to achieve the same longevity as a non TC/TN engine like the Ovation? 

-The need for turbocharging/turbonormalizing: 
    Several locals have strongly recommended this to climb above icing conditions, though there will be times when that will definitely not be doable in a non-pressurized piston.  Sustained climb rates might be an issue. 

    Q: Has anyone from an Ovation in this area? (looking at the 310hp/TopProp models)

-Avionics
    Have read some very reasonable opinions on non being locked into the G1000, also many people seem to be happy with the G1000 situational awareness and overall feature set. This obviously ties in with the model choice on the higher end above. Most of my time is in 6-pack aircraft, less in TAA planes, so I really do want *some* glass for the higher SA and a good autopilot. I am in that sense biased towards either a fancier panel or upgrading it soon (at least to a big-screen GPS).

Anyhow, that list I realize now is quite long, and probably enough to frame the situation. 

Any thoughts appreciated, 
David
 

[irishpilot]

Commuting adds pressure for performance, so I'd say that you'd need an Acclaim or Bravo for the turbo/high altitude performance in mountainous terrain. I bought my Bravo for commuting from TX-AL, but wanted FIKI and used it several times to get through unforcasted icing. I planned for at least 500' ceilings, and no flying into areas of known icing. I'd fly over/under it or around it, but I wouldn't plan to fly in it.  The Bravo's Achilles Heel is the useful load. If it is just you, or you and a passenger, the plane is awesome. If it is for a family, you'll be leaving a lot of bags and fuel out. Mine had a UL of 862. 

Mx is going to be higher on turbo birds, but that is to be expected. Watch out for the G1000 orphans as they can't easily be upgraded. Acclaims are awesome and if they are in your price point, go for it. 

I sold my Bravo when I no longer needed to commute. I have a Lancair ES with the IO-550 and love the simplicity of that Continental. I think you'll hear a lot of the same from the Ovation guys because the engine loves LOP, has decent performance up to 15k, and goes quite fast down low. My Lancair burns 12.5 gph LOP and around 15 ROP. A Bravo will burn around 18-19 gph, and only a few folk have gotten them to fly LOP. 

[GeeBee]

I own an Ovation and on occasion I have been out that way with it. I have flown everything from 172s to Boeings in that part of the world. While the Ovation is fine for an occasional visit, if it is where you are going to "live" buy a TKS equipped Acclaim.

 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Anyhow, that list I realize now is quite long, and probably enough to frame the situation. 

Any thoughts appreciated, 

In my opinion, the TKS Acclaim will do everything.  You indicated that you have no interest in getting there "no matter the weather" and, with that attitude, it would be a fantastic airplane.  And again, in my opinion (the only one I have), the big-bore Continental can be flown to TBO and beyond by treating it gently, or you can blow through cylinders at an alarming rate if you insist on going as fast as it will go.

[Fritz1]

I have been flying a FIKI Bravo for 6 years that was purchased new by a gentleman from Bozeman. I live in Virginia and regularly fly into Bozeman for skiing. The Bravo does the trick. The Acclaim is faster due to the better cowl and Hartzell prop. The tradeoff between the Conti and the Lyc is subtle, almost a semi religious choice, the Lyc has sodium filled exhaust valves and and oil cooled exhaust valve guides, but the cam is high in the case, Conti cam is low in the case, easier to inspect and appears to last longer in particular when not flown regularly. The Conti runs well LOP, the Lyc not so much. Talk to service technicians and overhaul shops. 

[KSMooniac]

It's outside of my direct experience, but I read a ton of content here and Beechtalk (lots of Continental operators & builders over there, as well as other experts).  I've flown my non-turbo J up that way a couple of times, and many other trips to CO and beyond and would strongly prefer a turbo if based there, and FIKI if in a commuting situation.  

An Ovation owner that I've lost touch with used to commute OH to CT in his FIKI Ovation and wrote extensively about it many years ago on the old email lists.  That was perfect for his mission, but he did not have the elevated terrain + weather.  I learned a lot about weather, aeronautical decision making, and equipment choice from reading his tales.  I know the Ovations can climb pretty well into the low- or mid-teens, but if you're looking for an "out" in icing I would like to be able to get higher quickly.  My first "big" trip from KS to CA had us over UT in IMC and picking up light icing in the summer.  I climbed up to 14 or 16k IIRC (very, very slowly) and did not escape it, then descended under the clouds and went as far as I could before having to turn back due to mountain obscuration.  2 un-planned nights in a hotel allowed the system to move enough to continue.  Had I been able to get to 18k I would have been in clear air and complaining about the sun in my eyes!

I'm a strong LOP advocate and as mentioned already, the Conti's can be made to run LOP relatively easily, while the Bravo's engine may or may not.  As far as I've read in 16+ years, some do, some don't and some have been thoroughly investigated in an attempt to make them run LOP without success.  I believe even GAMI is stumped.  That may or may not be important to you, but it swings hourly cost noticeably if you're having to run +3-4 GPH over the TBO run, not to mention everything else running hotter under the cowl.  BUT, Bravos are discounted relative to Acclaims, and most won't be stuck with G1000 systems either.  So saving on the purchase price can be spent on extra fuel or whatever else...  Conti cylinders continue to be troublesome, and all expert opinions I've gathered over the years point to short-cutting in their factory.  The really savvy expert/well-respected engine builders will in fact disassemble brand-new Conti jugs and re-do the valve installations to make them fit perfectly, and then they'll typically run to TBO without issue.  Otherwise, expect the valves to start failing somewhere in the 700-900 hour mark, regardless of LOP or ROP operations.  Know that going in, plan for it, deal with it, then keep flying!

I would not want to buy a G1000 anything, especially from Mooney with questionable future support since there is no way to upgrade or replace the system without factory involvement.  I would absolutely not buy one without WAAS.  I may be biased as I'm still running steam gauges, but at least I have the freedom to put any number of options in my plane.  YMMV.  A GX WAAS Mooney with the GFC700 is a wonderful setup, though, I just worry about 10+ years in the future.  If you'll upgrade before then, it might not matter.  @donkaye (Master CFI and 30? year Bravo owner) has upgraded his Mooney with the best available Garmin tech and it is more capable IMO than any factory Mooney.  And he can update it again whenever he feels like it.

I'll throw out another suggestion... consider the "lesser" M20K instead.  Your mission seems very regional, albeit a big region, but not going halfway across the country regularly.  Look at FIKI 252's and especially Encores, but there are not many Encores in circulation.  You'll lose 10" of extra baggage space over the long bodies and a little bit of cruise speed vs. the big-engine long bodies, but gain more useful load and likely usable payload due to lower fuel burn.  On your typical trips, the total time might be closer than you would imagine.  Many would say the 252 or Encore was the best all-around Mooney ever made as it balances everything very well.  There are quite a few 252's out there, and they can be upgraded to the Encore configuration to pick up more gross weight/useful load, and of course any panel/autopilot option you might want.

There is a Mooney out there for you and your mission!  Enjoy learning and shopping.

 

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

I’ve flown out there a fair amount with a 231 Rocket with TKS (non-FIKI).  If you are already going to be restrictive on flying in icing, the non-FIKI, IMHO, is every bit as effective as the FIKI models.  In my experience, flying 3 Non-FIKI and one FIKI single engine airplanes, the only plane that left me with no de-ice in icing conditions was the FIKI airplane.  Bad luck, but demonstrates “officially FIKI” gives you no guarantee you will be safer!  Your decision to launch should have more basis on the weather than the “FIKI” certification   
 

Tom

 

[dkkim73]

Thank you all the great responses so far! 

One thing I wanted to clarify re: flying "in all conditions". I didn't mean that I would expect to entirely avoid icing (practically), just that I didn't think any aircraft in my scope would be able to complete the mission in any wx. Ie. IIUC it would be good to have FIKI to remain legal and (in some sense) prudent not having to divert if there were actual ice reported in a layer ahead of me on approach, etc. I would imagine, from prior midwestern experience, that it would be mostly an issue in layers at each end, or extending time during an inadvertant encounter. 

Sorry if I was being unclear there. 

It sounds like the devil's in the details with the Lycoming vs. Continental choice. If running the Bravo rich yielded adequate or better reliability, that might make the cost argument *for short trips* which this is for the near-term. Cruising at those levels it does seem like LOP is the long-term way to go. 

It is a bit hard to follow the multiple G1000 threads. Has there been any recent top-level guidance from Mooney on long-term commitments to upgrade paths on the G1000 installs in the Bravo DX, Acclaims, etc (once WAAS is upgraded)? IIUC the up-front cost and time of the STC is the issue, and thereafter there would always be the costs of Garmin equipment. 

Have existing G1000 users here felt anything basic was lacking, or just chafed at the lack of upgradability? (I would understand this being a tinkerer). Not to threadjack, just trying to understand if I need to go a lot more deeply into this before making what would otherwise be a more airframe/powerplant-driven set of decisions. 

Thank you, David

[Utah20Gflyer]

In the western US you need a turbo airplane to fly In IMC in the winter.  Icing is present almost continuously and while an Ovation could climb to the MEAs in most scenarios you would be left with few options if that altitude ended up being unacceptable.  

[Schllc]

Whatever extra expense is associated with a turbo is almost irrelevant with regard to cost of ownership, and in that environment, I would consider a turbo a necessity. 
I have yet to meet an actual turbo owner that regrets the decision. 

Regarding the g1000…

Lots of opinions out there, but the guys with no ownership experience are doing a disservice by denigrating the equipment.  It is without a doubt one of the most robust and capable platforms available. 
Just make sure you talk to people who actually own and use them as well as the folks who think they are a bad idea. 
With regard to future service, I highly doubt Garmin will stop servicing these units in the foreseeable future, there are just too many of them. 
 

[Mufflerbearing]

Having flown my FIKI Screaming Eagle for the last 5 years based in North Idaho with frequent travels to Utah, over the Cascades to Seattle, Eastern Colorado, and to Eastern Montana, I have no problems whatsoever flying year around and have almost a 100% dispatch rate.  At 12K, I can LOP to 11.5 gph at 21 inches and still true at 165kts.  FIKI does have a speed penalty.  My UL is still high at just shy of 1100 lbs.  Having twin w430s and the aspen 2500 suite, it is very capable and I can upgrade as wanted or needed. 

After spending time debating the issue of going Bravo I keep coming back to, my plane is perfect for me and hard to beat in dispatch, economy, maintenance and speed. 

Also, talking to turbo owners, they say to a pilot, once going turbo, there is no going back.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Mufflerbearing
additional info

[LANCECASPER]

5 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

It is a bit hard to follow the multiple G1000 threads. Has there been any recent top-level guidance from Mooney on long-term commitments to upgrade paths on the G1000 installs in the Bravo DX, Acclaims, etc (once WAAS is upgraded)? IIUC the up-front cost and time of the STC is the issue, and thereafter there would always be the costs of Garmin equipment. 

Have existing G1000 users here felt anything basic was lacking, or just chafed at the lack of upgradability? (I would understand this being a tinkerer). Not to threadjack, just trying to understand if I need to go a lot more deeply into this before making what would otherwise be a more airframe/powerplant-driven set of decisions. 

No Bravo DX will have a G1000, only a Bravo GX. The DX had steam gauges and very few DX Bravos and Ovations sold once the G1000 was announced. They sell now but back then in 2004 some of them sat unsold for close to a year since people wanted the newest technology.

I have to admit that before owning a G1000 airplane I was skeptical and kept hearing comments about how it limited the airplane. It dawned on me though that I wasn't hearing those comments from people who regularly fly the G1000. After owning an Acclaim, all of which have the G1000, for close to two years now I really like the G1000. If Mooney ever did spend the money to allow a G1000 Nxi upgrade path about the only thing I would get that I don't have now is the ability to upload a flight plan from my iPad. Loading flight plans is so easy that's not really a concern. Having the GFC700 autopilot, which only comes with the G1000, is well worth it.

On the subject of icing there was a Bravo owner in the Pacific NW a couple of years ago who on one of his first flights in his "new" airplane counted on the FIKI and apparently the ice build up was too fast and the airplane was destroyed in a stall spin. I don't have FIKI and have only had it on one Mooney I owned, but I live in TX and I never have to be someplace if the weather calls for icing. I'm sure I would have FIKI if I lived up North. That being said though I think it's smart to use FIKI to get out of icing as quickly as you can. It's a nice tool  to get yourself out of that situation but I wouldn't plan ahead on flying in icing conditions in a small single engine airplane.

 

[GeeBee]

FIKI has an incremental improvement in dispatch rate. There are a few missions I would not have attempted without FIKI, one because it would be illegal and two peace of mind. There are also missions that even with FIKI I demurred. That Bravo in WA state entered SLD and no airplane can hang long in SLD, even a jet. I would add, FIKI is not approval to enter SLD conditions if you read the Flight Manual Supplement.

Regarding FIKI vs Non-FIKI. It is true that both systems have similar failure points, If the feed tube let's go or a surface distributor fails it won't a difference if it is FIKI or non-FIKI. What FIKI has however is two batteries and two alternators with an essential bus. It does not matter if you are in icing or not, having that redundancy is beyond re-assuring and in my mind paramount in an IFR airplane, especially today's electronic wonders. Because you can exit icing with proper planning, but there are routes in particular in the West where an electrical failure will drop you down into a pretty big crack. 

Ditto me on the G1000. Very capable, particularly with WAAS. Most the time, my iPad is closed with the G1000 panel except to find right or left traffic. 

[KSMooniac]

Before I get lumped into the G1000-hater club ;), I did say above that a GX WAAS Mooney with a GFC700 is a wonderful thing.  My point of view after owning my plane for 16+ years now with no plans to change planes is that the G1000 generation will reach end-of-life sooner rather than later, and there could be a point where an equipment failure leaves you stuck.  We're getting there with the 430/530 series today (EOL already announced), although there are thousands more of those boxes "out there" that can be scavenged for parts or simply bought as a take-out from someone upgrading.  There are far fewer G1000 systems in the fleet, but occasionally we'll see components available from salvage planes or perhaps someone that is upgrading to NXi.  Currently, GX Mooneys do not have the option to go NXi or any other upgrade, so they will be limited to Garmin's spare parts supplies and/or salvage inventory.  I've not read any crystal balls that say that could be in 3 years or 13 years or whenever.  We as owners do not have the ability to upgrade a G1000 system aside from going from non-WAAS to WAAS if the parts can be sourced.  Garmin will not give that option because the TC belongs to Mooney.  Maybe someday Mooney would make an option?  Who knows.  

If your ownership horizon is <10 years, then it is very likely you could own, operate, and enjoy a GX Mooney without issue.  If you might be keeping it for decades, then I would advise some deep thinking about all of the support scenarios.  I wish Mooney would authorize an upgrade path to a G3X or down-grade to steam gauges or something just to remove that potential dark cloud for long term owners.  That concern might not apply to many owners that trade planes frequently.

[Schllc]

11 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Before I get lumped into the G1000-hater club ;),

LOL, my comments were not directed at you, mostly at the previous threads.  The reasons to dislike are not invalid, I just meant talk to both sides.

[Yooper Rocketman]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

FIKI has an incremental improvement in dispatch rate. There are a few missions I would not have attempted without FIKI, one because it would be illegal and two peace of mind. There are also missions that even with FIKI I demurred. That Bravo in WA state entered SLD and no airplane can hang long in SLD, even a jet. I would add, FIKI is not approval to enter SLD conditions if you read the Flight Manual Supplement.

Regarding FIKI vs Non-FIKI. It is true that both systems have similar failure points, If the feed tube let's go or a surface distributor fails it won't a difference if it is FIKI or non-FIKI. What FIKI has however is two batteries and two alternators with an essential bus. It does not matter if you are in icing or not, having that redundancy is beyond re-assuring and in my mind paramount in an IFR airplane, especially today's electronic wonders. Because you can exit icing with proper planning, but there are routes in particular in the West where an electrical failure will drop you down into a pretty big crack. 

Ditto me on the G1000. Very capable, particularly with WAAS. Most the time, my iPad is closed with the G1000 panel except to find right or left traffic. 

You have two main TKS pumps as well.  I would say I agree on the two alternators.  I had my main one fail flying from the Lower Peninsula of Michigan to the Upper Peninsula (Sawyer KSAW) in the winter, in the dark, in a snow storm, and broke out at minimums.  I'm not sure I would have had the juice to get the gear down without that second alternator.

I'll share why I always fly with my Stratus and Ipad on, in another thread.  A pretty hairy situation that was shared with our LOBO Group at a convention concerning an Evolution (Prop Jet).

[irishpilot]

Also, talking to turbo owners, they say to a pilot, once going turbo, there is no going back.

I'm one of the ones who went turbo back to NA. That being said, I live in AZ and only go into the high terrain a few times a year. I went experimental to keep the speed and still get the simplicity of NA. I plan for 175 kts, and usually see 180-182 ROP, 177 LOP.

However, for the OP's stated mission. Turbo is the way to go.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[geoffb]

If you have places to be and an Acclaim fits your budget, it would be the one to have.  Otherwise a Bravo.  I was in western MT a couple weeks ago, in a hole.  Overcast was half-way up the mountains and the freezing level was at ridge top and about 1,000 below the MEA.  Turbocharging and TKS are nice to have.

If it's just for some personal travel, something naturally aspirated.  You don't mention load.  All turbo Mooneys are useful load limited.  If family travel means kids that will insist on growing, look at a 210 or an A36.

[dkkim73]

18 minutes ago, geoffb said:

You don't mention load.  All turbo Mooneys are useful load limited.  If family travel means kids that will insist on growing, look at a 210 or an A36.

Thanks for the anecdote; that's exactly the kind of situation I'm thinking about. Was just doing some groundwork with a local instructor this AM and he was also telling me the climb rates out of KMSO on missed approaches etc. really ask for a higher-performance airplane, too. Also high DA in the summer. 

As for load, yes, I should be more specific. We are close to being empty-nest. Two children, one in college, one with two more years in high school. So at some point it will be 4 adults, 2 of them large-ish. Although I suspect a lot of the trips will probably be 2 people. 
For the commute it would be me and light baggage. 

[Fly Boomer]

58 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Thanks for the anecdote; that's exactly the kind of situation I'm thinking about. Was just doing some groundwork with a local instructor this AM and he was also telling me the climb rates out of KMSO on missed approaches etc. really ask for a higher-performance airplane, too. Also high DA in the summer. 

As for load, yes, I should be more specific. We are close to being empty-nest. Two children, one in college, one with two more years in high school. So at some point it will be 4 adults, 2 of them large-ish. Although I suspect a lot of the trips will probably be 2 people. 
For the commute it would be me and light baggage. 

Of course, if you have four people onboard, you just leave behind some fuel and baggage.  One of these airplanes with over 100 gallons on board may only be able to carry a single person, or maybe two lightweights.

[wombat]

Have you considered a Rocket?    Asking for a friend. 

[dkkim73]

@wombat I have not done much detailed research into the earlier Mooneys, although I did check Controller recently to see if there were any TC/TN TKS birds posted. I would be open, I think   Certainly seems like a nice capable solution and it seems as if the people who have them like them a lot. Are you looking to part with yours? 

 

[Alan Maurer]

Mooniacs, Lots of discussion regarding the G1000/GFC700 installations. Mine is an Ovation GX2 and flying in sunny Florida, I have no use for a turbo.

The G1000 is a delight to fly and with WAAS and the GFC700 autopilot , who could ask for anything more. The price to upgrade to the NXi is around 30K

and is there a big advantage?? I cannot figure out why Mooney gives a hoot if anyone wants to upgrade it or what Mooney would have to do? 

And around here in the winter , we have sunshine and icing is never a problem!

Alan

[dkkim73]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:31 AM, GeeBee said:

\What FIKI has however is two batteries and two alternators with an essential bus. It does not matter if you are in icing or not, having that redundancy is beyond re-assuring and in my mind paramount in an IFR airplane, especially today's electronic wonders. Because you can exit icing with proper planning, but there are routes in particular in the West where an electrical failure will drop you down into a pretty big crack. 

This makes an enormous amount of sense to me. I used to fly with paper charts and a GPSMAP196 on my yoke in addition to dual VORs and a 430-530 stack and a lousy wing leveler at best... At the same time I want more 2D SA with moving maps (ie. I want a big screen G1000 or Avidyne or Garmin touchscreen GPS), I really don't want it to all suddenly go dark in the soup. Dual anything.... esp. a 2nd bus, etc, all that kind of talk is music to my ears. 

[cliffy]

Just a short thought-

What many SE/single generator/single battery  IFR pilots miss is doing a battery capacity check every year.

Their only "out" with a gen failure  is the ships battery. If it ain't up to snuff they may have only minutes of power available.

Just because it started the engine doesn't mean it will run the panel for even half an hour to get you down

And it will take 1/2 hr. 

What ever you decide on for a ride do - perform a battery capacity check if you plan on IMC conditions

At the price of batteries today ($400+) I'd now include that in a pre-buy inspection

I've flown a lot in the west mountains in all kinds of weather and a/c in the last 60 years If I were you I'd look at turbos to get high

I don't know your background but if you can,  take a high altitude chamber ride so you know your own Hypoxia limits. 

Always have a plan on where to go down if the O2 quits!!!!