Turbo or no turbo

[Parker_Woodruff]

A mooney M20J climbs much nicer than a NA Arrow in the Rockies. Been there done that. 

Also, I would not own a turbo that couldn't go LOP. (At least not with my current operating budget)

[aviatoreb]

Quote: M016576

OK, I'm off my soap box now...

Oh, and for Eric- I have a N.A. M20J... because N.A. M20J's are better    (oh, and I can't afford a turbo!!! hah!)

 

[AndyFromCB]

Parker,

There is no question about that. I've stated that before. A M20J probably climbs twice as fast as a short wing Arrow at altitude. My Arrow was a dog above 10000 DA. Quite a few times out of Denver, being about 400 under gross we would see 200fpm until we got out farther away from the mountains. I know a J will still do about 500fpm in same conditions. 

Andy

[pjsny78]

Quote: M016576

I've been trying to dispell the myth that a "turbo is a must" in the rockies on this board for a while... and here it is again!  I don't know why Mooney pilots seem to think that you need a turbo any time you get west of the mississippi...

anyway, here I go again:  I learned to fly in a C172 (NA) at an airfield with a field elevation of 5000MSL in the heart of a valley in the rockies.  lots of NA aircraft fly out of there... and fly north into the sawtooths north of stanley, ID.  Many are much smaller aircraft than a mooney, and they do just fine.

I fly my M20J in the rockies and sierras and everything inbetween on a regular basis, and I've never had to cancel a flight due to the lack of a turbocharger.  In fact, I've never said to myself "self... sure would be nice to have a turbo charger right now!"  I find that the fields that I have visited (and that most mooney pilots would visit.. with the exception of Piperpainter (he's crazy!)... are not only paved, but more than long enough to accomodate a NA mooney on a high DA day).  I make fairly regular trips to mammoth in the summer time, and that DA can climb above 10000msl.

Flying in the rockies isn't about having a turbo or not having a turbo... It's about mountain flying, and knowing how to plan and fly in that environment.  Just like anything else in aviation, it's a matter of training and proficiency..

 

OK, I'm off my soap box now...

Oh, and for Eric- I have a N.A. M20J... because N.A. M20J's are better    (oh, and I can't afford a turbo!!! hah!)

 

[HopePilot]

How far under gross were you?  How many passengers?  Going there myself, as you know.

[WardHolbrook]

DUPLICATE POST

[WardHolbrook]

I'm one of those "it all depends" guys. A turbo gives you some additional options. However, there is no such thing as a free lunch and having options costs money. If you need the additional performance then the additional cost is probably warranted. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to come up with a scenario where having a turbo-FIKI bird would allow you to safely fly a trip that you wouldn't want to attempt in an "asmatic" Mooney. How frequently do you encounter such scenarios? Everyone will have a different answer. Another thing that needs to be addressed is pilot performance. Higher performance aircraft need higher performing pilots. When you're up in the high teens and lower flight levels there are a lot of "gotcha's". As a pilot are you up to the challenge? 

For the record, most of the turbo'd aircraft I've flown were pressurized light twins. Twins are the one aircraft type that I would recommend going the turbo route is you live in or frequent mountainous areas. As far as singles go, I found them most useful flying Cessna 206s and 207s and then it only made a real difference when it came to high DA takeoff performance. I've never once flown one of those above 12,500'.  

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

A mooney M20J climbs much nicer than a NA Arrow in the Rockies. Been there done that. 

Also, I would not own a turbo that couldn't go LOP. (At least not with my current operating budget)

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: pjsny78

[jetdriven]

Quote: allsmiles

The added (and unjustified) expense of the turbo is bad enough. LOP is even worse and asking for more trouble! The cost of fuel is miniscule next to the expense of maintaining the turbo! Not interested in a L/ROP debate, just my opinion. I woulnd'nt be thinking of the fuel! It's peanuts next to the cost of the engine. Of course I don't nor do I have any intentions of getting into a turbo! As someone said earlier its all about proper planning and proficiency and not about NA or turbo.

[AndyFromCB]

There is no traffic whatsoever between about 14K and 22K. They say it's lonely at the top but I kind of like it ;-) Plus no mater what some say, you are above most weather at 20K. You can see for miles, plan ahead and not relly so much on stormscope and NEXRAD. What you can't top, you can dodge much easier. I see a lot of trips this spring/summer that either got cancelled, chartered out or were flown comercial last year being doable with turbo.

Just "washed" the airplane. 3 LPV in actual down to about 1200. Altitude hold still no working ;-( I miss my s-tec.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: jetdriven

The added (and unjustified) expense of the turbo is bad enough. LOP is even worse and asking for more trouble! The cost of fuel is miniscule next to the expense of maintaining the turbo! Not interested in a L/ROP debate, just my opinion. I woulnd'nt be thinking of the fuel! It's peanuts next to the cost of the engine. Of course I don't nor do I have any intentions of getting into a turbo! As someone said earlier its all about proper planning and proficiency and not about NA or turbo.

[AndyFromCB]

LOP/ROP doesn't really matter, keep the damn cylinders below 380. With the Bravo, I don't have a choice. They get cooled with fuel ;-( I'd much rather cool them with air but the engine vibrates too much when I go over to LOP. My IO-360 in the Arrow run great LOP. My understanding is you can't really run the Bravo LOP or at least not most of them. Mine just starts vibrating too much.

[pjsny78]

Quote: HopePilot

How far under gross were you?  How many passengers?  Going there myself, as you know.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Allsmiles:

Full Rich, level flight - at 33" 2550 RPM, Cyl 2 on my plane runs about 410 dF. LOP it will sit between 378 and 388 or so. 

Still trying to figure out if that cyl really runs that hot, even after GAMIs, or if the issue is a bad probe. 

I save at least 3 GPH at my typical cruise power setting while LOP and all my cyls run much cooler. 

[FBCK]

Parker I have a 231 with the intercooler and auto wastegate and Have the same issue with #2, I think its the location of the oil cooler.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: FBCK

Parker I have a 231 with the intercooler and auto wastegate and Have the same issue with #2, I think its the location of the oil cooler.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: triple8s

I have a friend who has a 231 (w/out intercooler) and he never goes over about 14 because he says it will run too hot. If I couldnt get over 14 I wouldnt have it. Another thought, what is the serv. ceiling for more powerful NA Mooneys or even twins for that matter? Would an Ovation, Missile, a Screaming Eagle high a much higher service ceiling? What about twins? Do NA twins get up there higher than most singles? My CFI has a Turbo Arrow that has an intercooler and he says it will go to 16k no problem.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: allsmiles

The added (and unjustified) expense of the turbo is bad enough. LOP is even worse and asking for more trouble! The cost of fuel is miniscule next to the expense of maintaining the turbo! Not interested in a L/ROP debate, just my opinion. I woulnd'nt be thinking of the fuel! It's peanuts next to the cost of the engine. Of course I don't nor do I have any intentions of getting into a turbo! As someone said earlier its all about proper planning and proficiency and not about NA or turbo.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Nick,

It does cost a bit more at annual time (More to inspect) and at some point our components will break and we'll have to overhaul them). Maybe $5-10K at overhaul time.

I used to be afraid of turbo ownership. Now that I'm doing it for real it's not so bad...yet

[Joe Zuffoletto]

It just depends on your mission. I'm based at Denver Centennial and 90% of my flights are to the west, so I cross the Rockies a lot. I also cross the Sierras in CA a lot because we have family and a property in San Francisco. These are very high mountain ranges and during the winter months especially, strong westerlies flow over both of them creating lots of turbulence down low and strong to severe mountain waves on the eastern escarpments. I've seen downdrafts exceeding 3,000fpm on bad days in these waves. As far as I'm concerned, the safest and most comfortable way to deal with these conditions is to top them, which at FL200 or so you almost always can. Need a turbo for that.

As far as maintenance goes, I owned a 1998 Encore for 11 years and put about 1,000 hours on it during that time. I can't recall a single maintenance event specific to the turbo. I'm sure it added some marginal cost to my annuals for inspections, etc., but that's it. The jury's still out on my new Acclaim, which I haven't had long enough to comment on yet.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

On a side note, I do advoctae lean of peak operations and routinely make a practice of flying that way in my K model.  I could not run Lean of Peak in my J and as such I'm actually burning 9 - 9.5 gph in my K (LoP) and was buring closer to 11 gph in the J (RoP)...stock injectors in both aircraft. Although annuals might be a bit more expensive the benifit of getting high in a reasonable amount of time far outweights any expense associated with it...for me. Also the value of the king autopilot and O2 alone in this vintage model mooney made getting a K over a J a no brainer based on what i considered to be a real value in the standard equipment mooney supplied with the K

[Ron McBride]

I have been flying for 40 years ago without a turbo. My current ride is an F. I would love to have a turbo normalized Mooney, with a 2nd throttle set up. I think that this would be the best of both worlds.

Ron

[DaV8or]

Quote: N9154V

I would love to have a turbo normalized Mooney, with a 2nd throttle set up. I think that this would be the best of both worlds.

Ron

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: DaV8or

What's the second throttle set up?