Savvy aviation video on Mechanic "crisis"... Maintinence Clubs Idea.

[A64Pilot]

I thought Mike Bush offered a similar service ?

[1980Mooney]

On 6/18/2023 at 11:26 AM, EricJ said:

They'd also have to sort out policy for prioritizing whose airplane gets worked on when the queue is full, and how to distribute costs when some people get far more service than others.

It seems like a recipe for disagreements and disappointment to me.

I don't think this is Mike's best idea.

Distribute costs to others?...Yes by definition.  He said they set one fixed price annually- the same for every plane.  He said they lose money on 500 planes (i.e. those get far more service).  And the other 4,500 make enough profit to cover the loses on the 500.  The cost over-run on the minority of planes needing excessive service is distributed back to the majority of planes.  Another way to say it is that majority of planes subsidizes the minority of maintenance hogs.  It is like insurance.  And he said that he looks at the overall profitability of the business.  If it doesn't make money then he raises the fixed price the next year.....Just like insurance.

Edited June 22, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[jetdriven]

That disincentivizes folks with really well-maintained airplanes while incentivizing first time owners who buy their planes on eBay. 

We basically quit working on fixed-pitch fixed gear singles, It ends up costing a fortune to get it through a real annual, and the owner is pissed at the invoice. We lose money on the job as well.   It was 2800$ in parts on this Cessna 150. Nice looking plane. Owned by a flying club, who happened to be the IA who (really didnt) maintained the plane for 15 years.  Missing logs, no AD list, leaking brakes, mufflers with holes in them, carburetor leaking gas down the side.   the nice one was the gascolator missing safety wire and rattly loose.

[A64Pilot]

The sad truth is the fleets getting older, new aircraft are WAY beyond the reach of most.

The older an aircraft gets the less expensive it is to purchase, but again sadly most often the more expensive it is to maintain, so what’s happening more and more every year is the average aircraft becomes affordable for the average buyer to purchase, but the cost to maintain or bring it back to standards is outside their reach.

I see it all the time, we all do, the “should I buy this airplane” posts, the engine is 500 hours past TBO? And again sadly the answers often given is that TBO doesn’t mean anything, it will be fine. Often the buyer is borrowing money to make the purchase, and really can’t spend another $50K on engine, prop and accessories overhaul.

The small single engine fixed gear “trainer” types are often the worst as they are often the most affordable, which often means the owner just doesn’t have the means to bring the aircraft back to airworthiness standards.

I don’t want to disparage anyone’s airplane here, so I will use my C-140 as an example, it’s value probably is less than an engine overhaul costs for it, and there are a LOT of aircraft that can be had for less than the cost of an overhaul, so once your the proud owner what have you got? How long before the cost of maintenance exceeds the purchase price?

Its not just airplanes, it’s cruising boats too, especially older larger sailboats, many maintenance yards have what we called “fields of dreams” where someone bought one with the idea of fixing it up and going cruising, but seriously underestimated the cost on both labor and expense to do so. 

So I can understand why someone may decide to no longer work on old little “cheap” airplanes, they are often a nightmare to work on and the owner sadly just doesn’t have the means to pay for it.

That’s not everyone of course, I speak to averages.

Friend of mine in the Army bought a cheap Piper Apache to build multi engine time so once he was out of the Army he could get a job flying something, well he made enough I guess to buy fuel and oil, but first Annual he found out both engines weren’t airworthy, one case had been welded illegally etc. I don’t know the final outcome, but assume the aircraft was scrapped and he spent the next few years making payments on an airplane he didn’t have.

In all honesty for many people who have to borrow to buy an older airplane and don’t have an A&P etc., it’s likely that renting may be a better bet

[Hank]

On 6/17/2023 at 2:28 PM, GeeBee said:

Just as a reference. I have a friend and his grandson just signed on with Delta. He had a fresh A&P from a 4 year school with an avionics cert. He is first year pay is 105K plus a 15K signing bonus he keeps after 2 years.Add medical, vacation, retirement and pass privileges. Not to mention as a W2 employee he pays less SS because the employer picks up more. When you add it all up as a 1099 employee you would need to make about 190K a year to match what Delta is giving him now. To work as an A&P in GA, you have to want to do it.

Because everyone who works at every small business in America makes Fortune 500 wages . . . . .

This is part of why people want to move up from the Regional airlines to the Big Boys, because the Regionals don't pay Big Boy salaries. 

Do you pay Fortune 500 rates to everyone who works for your company, who mows your grass, sprays for bugs, works on your cars, renovates your home? I've worked inside and outside of the Fortune 500, and even inside there is considerable variation in salary depending upon the industry, and "A&P for GA airplanes" is a whole different ballgame than "A&P for large multinational airline"--different in the scope of knowledge required, the scope of work performed, union rules & regulations [can't work for the airline unless you join their unions and pay their dues], and responsibilities. But you want to pay the same salary to your A&P? 

I'll go for a Participation Trophy, but that's all that I'm willing to concede. If you want me to kick in $500/month plus $200/hour to have someone do my annual inspection, I'll politely say No Thanks and let it go at that.

This post is where I quit reading this thread, but it keeps getting longer  . . . . . . 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Because everyone who works at every small business in America makes Fortune 500 wages . . . . .

This is part of why people want to move up from the Regional airlines to the Big Boys, because the Regionals don't pay Big Boy salaries. 

Do you pay Fortune 500 rates to everyone who works for your company, who mows your grass, sprays for bugs, works on your cars, renovates your home? I've worked inside and outside of the Fortune 500, and even inside there is considerable variation in salary depending upon the industry, and "A&P for GA airplanes" is a whole different ballgame than "A&P for large multinational airline"--different in the scope of knowledge required, the scope of work performed, union rules & regulations [can't work for the airline unless you join their unions and pay their dues], and responsibilities. But you want to pay the same salary to your A&P? 

I'll go for a Participation Trophy, but that's all that I'm willing to concede. If you want me to kick in $500/month plus $200/hour to have someone do my annual inspection, I'll politely say No Thanks and let it go at that.

This post is where I quit reading this thread, but it keeps getting longer  . . . . . . 

Your point may be valid if the job qualifications were the same. In fact, you don't need an A&P to work at an airline. My point is there is a job for A&Ps and IA's out there that pays for more, has far less overhead, responsibility and the barrier to entry is nil . Equally so, the ink can be still wet on your A&P versus a new ATP at a regional and still work for the "big boys" without barriers, in fact recruited right out of school. A&P for GA vs A&P for a large multinational airline..... the barriers to entry for the novice for the airline is nil but the pay difference and quality of life are world's apart. You really can't compare them to pilots. And yes, I pay top dollar for my car mechanic, because I want the best and done right the first time with a profound nationwide guarantee. Actually the car labor rate is way beyond most aviation shops. Which is why a stroll through most automobile dealerships have a lot of A&P mechanics going for the better rates and life, my hangar neighbor included. IA who works at a Nissan dealership.

[kortopates]

I thought Mike Bush offered a similar service ?

Savvy manages maintenance and consults and advises, but does not turn wrenches.


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[jetdriven]

19 hours ago, M20Doc said:

It’s a good thing Cirrus installed a constant speed propeller, or you’d never get to work on one!

we just can't even break even on old cheap airplanes that are in such bad shape, and the owner has no means to get it to airworthy standards. Not new standards here, but airworthy  standards. The checklist is published  right there in the service manual.  And I have yet to see a Mooney coming to our shop that says they used the entire Mooney factory checklist. It always says "referenced the factory checklist and accomplish the annual per FAR part 43 appendix D." ItThese are not the same things.
interestingly, Cirrus, there's a guy behind us who literally grafted the outboard section of a wing onto a Cirrus that was damaged in a taxi accident here a couple years ago.. Boat fiberglass and West Marine, 105 epoxy is what he's using to put it back together. Cirrus  said it needs a detailed  structural repair order that's gonna cost $13,000 to even generate. And I'm guessing, but I don't think he did that.