Tips for power off 180 in Mooney ?

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I asked as I’m pretty sure that wasn’t a Commercial maneuver when I did my ride.

I tried to find the answer to that. Haven’t found it yet. What I did find out is the power off 180 used to be a private pilot maneuver and at some point they moved it to the commercial.

[hammdo]

I had to do it on my private test…

-Don

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m going to throw out one more technique that’s different than these are usually taught.  We used this for emergency engine out landing in the USAF T-6.  Pick your aim point ehile on downwind, usually ~500’ prior to your touchdown point but depends on winds.  Configure with only gear abeam aim point.  Turn base a couple seconds later.  Now here’s the difference… hold that aim point no matter what (except for a low speed limit, say 80mph).  So you hold the nose down to “fly into the impact point (aim point)” and note your airspeed.  You’re hoping to see something just above your desired final airspeed and increasing (slowly).  As long as you hold the aim point, you can use airspeed as your primary energy indicator.  If it’s increasing, use flaps, slip or elongate your pattern.  If it’s steady, do nothing.  It takes a little practice to be ok with this technique.

My Owneew Manual says no turns below 90mph without flaps. My short final target speed is 70-75 mph depending on weight for the landing. Since mynpattern speed is 90, flaps go out before gear; gear down starts descent, but obviously not engine out.

[RobertGary1]

I’m so happy I’ve already taken all 3 checkrides that require that (7 if you count helicopter 180’s). It’s a challenging maneuver. 
 

-Robert 

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I tried to find the answer to that. Haven’t found it yet. What I did find out is the power off 180 used to be a private pilot maneuver and at some point they moved it to the commercial.

Interesting. On a whim, I asked a presolo student pilot to do one. Nailed it, and it wasn't a fluke. Such a good stick it was scary.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

Interesting. On a whim, I asked a presolo student pilot to do one. Nailed it, and it wasn't a fluke. Such a good stick it was scary.

Not a surprise--my CFI used to pull the throttle at least once per lesson. When's the last time you randomly "failed" the engine in your Mooney and set up a landing in a field or on a road?

On my PPL checkride, my engine-out landing went down to about 50' above the soybeans, when the DPE said "you can recover now, I think you have this landing made."

[A64Pilot]

15 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I tried to find the answer to that. Haven’t found it yet. What I did find out is the power off 180 used to be a private pilot maneuver and at some point they moved it to the commercial.

That’s interesting because I was never a Private pilot, first airplane checkride was Commercial, so maybe that slipped through I guess, because no one has ever asked me to do an engine out 180 in an airplane, ever or not that I remember anyway.

Army training in the Hughes 269 we did engine outs several times a day, the IO-360 in the Hughes when snapped from nearly full throttle to idle had a bad habit of quitting, an airplane motor is driven by the prop if you snatch it to idle, a helicopter engine isn’t coupled to anything, so practice engine outs sometimes became real.

Of course we did 180 auto’s in everything. Talk about a hoot a 180 auto in a Huey was interesting to say the least, you had to point the nose seemingly right at the ground and I’m sure the descent rate was in the thousands of feet per min, then once the turn was made, big decal, catch the rotor as it’s RPM was climbing and land.

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Not a surprise--my CFI used to pull the throttle at least once per lesson. When's the last time you randomly "failed" the engine in your Mooney and set up a landing in a field or on a road?

On my PPL checkride, my engine-out landing went down to about 50' above the soybeans, when the DPE said "you can recover now, I think you have this landing made."

On my private in the Cessna 140 we were maybe 2 feet over the crops when he said to recover. 

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

That’s interesting because I was never a Private pilot, first airplane checkride was Commercial, so maybe that slipped through I guess, because no one has ever asked me to do an engine out 180 in an airplane, ever or not that I remember anyway.

Army training in the Hughes 269 we did engine outs several times a day, the IO-360 in the Hughes when snapped from nearly full throttle to idle had a bad habit of quitting, an airplane motor is driven by the prop if you snatch it to idle, a helicopter engine isn’t coupled to anything, so practice engine outs sometimes became real.

Of course we did 180 auto’s in everything. Talk about a hoot a 180 auto in a Huey was interesting to say the least, you had to point the nose seemingly right at the ground and I’m sure the descent rate was in the thousands of feet per min, then once the turn was made, big decal, catch the rotor as it’s RPM was climbing and land.

It’s fun in the r22 low inertia rotor system. Did 180 full downs for my cfi checkride. You’re very active on the collective to stay in the narrow band. 

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

Not a surprise--my CFI used to pull the throttle at least once per lesson. When's the last time you randomly "failed" the engine in your Mooney and set up a landing in a field or on a road?

On my PPL checkride, my engine-out landing went down to about 50' above the soybeans, when the DPE said "you can recover now, I think you have this landing made."

Not talking about just a simulated engine out and a setup with an ultimate recovery, done that myself and to many others.  A simulated engine out with a landing within 200' of a specific spot on the runway. He didn't need the 200'.

[Yourpilotincommand]

Just keep practicing till you’re solid every time. Always know what the wind is doing. Practice at least 2 or 3 times a week. Always start pattern work with a normal landing to get in the groove. It’s always better to be a little high if you’re not sure. You can always add flaps and slip down.  Sometimes you may have to stick it like a F18 on a carrier. But don’t force it. Always be ready to do a go around if you come up short. And practice the go arounds anyway!  The power off 180 is your mulligan on a checkride.  Pulling the prop helps you reduce the drag and stretch it a little if your coming up short. But be careful if you  have to go around. Also, if you’re coming up short try to get into ground effect sooner.  Bottom line, keep practicing.  Commercial in my Mooney was a blast! 

[TheAv8r]

I also did my Commercial in my M20E. Overall a fun plane to do commercial maneuvers in, if a bit more challenging. For a Power Off 180, here are my tips:

• Give yourself room on your aiming point. I usually picked the 2nd or 3rd runway stripe, you don't need to pick the numbers that has you flaring in the grass. This gave me time to make adjustments on final.
• Give or take, we found the M20E floats about 300ft at 80mph indicated before it touches down. Slowing it to 70mph it floats around 150ft. The stripes at a standard runway are 120ft long and 80ft gaps, so that's why that 2nd or 3rd stripe as your point helps is it's easier to back up 250ft or so and start flaring then so you're within 50ft of the touchdown point. 
• Come in high. You have tons of ways to lose energy, add flaps, drop gear, slip, s-turns, etc. I used slips and s-turns on my ride to bleed off the energy on final. 
• The prop lever buys you 70-100ft if you're coming to come in short. If you're close but feeling a little short, pull the prop lever, but you're committed to the landing at that point. 

There is no set procedure for Power off 180s. There's nothing you can do every time that will get you to the point every time. It's not a test of procedure, it's a test of pilot ability. Every one will be different, winds will be different, altitude on entry will be slightly different, etc. You have tools at your disposal: gear, flaps, slips, s-turns, prop lever. Use your judgment and those tools to manage the energy of the airplane to get it down -0/+200 ft. It doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be within that range of your point.

[hais]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:18 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

When I took my commercial, I wasn't even thinking I was going to do the power off 180 on that landing. We were on downwind and the examiner says "your engine quit, where are you going to land?" This was at Hillsboro OR. I told him I would land at the intersection of the two runways. I was just about abeam the crosswind runway at the time. I just continued my approach. He asked "Are you going to put the wheels up?" I said no. On short final I seemed to be coming up short, so I put the wheels up. I kept my hand on the switch so I wouldn't forget. When I was about 10 feet up I put them back down. I left tire marks on the center line stripe of the crosswind runway. 

If you leave the wheels down, you do have a way to increase your energy.

And this is what happens when the examiner isn't specific:

Examiner: there's a 50' obstacle over there.

Me: okay. 

I cleared it with plenty of margin and landed long. 

Examiner: that was a long landing. What was your intended touch point?

Me: the first third. It's a long runway, certainly a long landing, but well within the third. You didn't specify the touchdown point.

Examiner: mhhh... my bad, let's go check what the regs say.

He didn't find a guidance, but wasn't comfortable to let that go. So he called it a partial and asked to retest the following day. He learned his lesson, and was sure to brief the touchdown point before the flight. I almost thought he was gonna paint an orange dot just to be sure  

[N201MKTurbo]

23 minutes ago, hais said:

And this is what happens when the examiner isn't specific:

Examiner: there's a 50' obstacle over there.

Me: okay. 

I cleared it with plenty of margin and landed long. 

Examiner: that was a long landing. What was your intended touch point?

Me: the first third. It's a long runway, certainly a long landing, but well within the third. You didn't specify the touchdown point.

Examiner: mhhh... my bad, let's go check what the regs say.

He didn't find a guidance, but wasn't comfortable to let that go. So he called it a partial and asked to retest the following day. He learned his lesson, and was sure to brief the touchdown point before the flight. I almost thought he was gonna paint an orange dot just to be sure  

I think my examiner passed me before we took off. He said "I've never given a commercial checkride to someone with 6000 hours before".

But to your point, I've noticed that every instructor has his/her own idea about how maneuvers should be flown. When they ask you to do some maneuver, I usually ask how they want it done. Some get mad and say there is only one way to do it! I internally roll my eyes and say "OK, whatever you say boss", and then politely ask them to refresh my memory.

[ilovecornfields]

7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

But to your point, I've noticed that every instructor has his/her own idea about how maneuvers should be flown. When they ask you to do some maneuver, I usually ask how they want it done. Some get mad and say there is only one way to do it! I internally roll my eyes and say "OK, whatever you say boss", and then politely ask them to refresh my memory.

Definitely true. When I took my private pilot checkride the examiner asked me to show him s-turns across a road. I was proud of myself as I finished the maneuver until he looked at me and blurted “What the hell was that?!” We had a brief discussion about what he meant, he showed me one then I did one and he ended up passing me. Probably took pity on me because it was my 17th birthday.

[laytonl]

For the commercial 180, I found aiming for three stripes prior to the touchdown zone worked well.  I always used full flaps for consistency.  On the actual ride, the tower gave me a last minute change to fly a right hand (non-standard) pattern which unsetttled me some.   I was a little low and had to pull the prop to make the touchdown marker.  Examiner said she would have failed me if I hadn’t push the prop back in prior to landing.  Lee

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, laytonl said:

For the commercial 180, I found aiming for three stripes prior to the touchdown zone worked well.  I always used full flaps for consistency.  On the actual ride, the tower gave me a last minute change to fly a right hand (non-standard) pattern which unsetttled me some.   

Just to be technical, there is nothing about a right hand pattern at a towered airport that is "non-standard."

But you make an excellent point. If you are ever in a situation where you need to do this for real, choosing right or left pattern might not be an option. They should be practiced in both directions.

[N201MKTurbo]

14 hours ago, laytonl said:

For the commercial 180, I found aiming for three stripes prior to the touchdown zone worked well.  I always used full flaps for consistency.  On the actual ride, the tower gave me a last minute change to fly a right hand (non-standard) pattern which unsetttled me some.   I was a little low and had to pull the prop to make the touchdown marker.  Examiner said she would have failed me if I hadn’t push the prop back in prior to landing.  Lee

I never thought about it, but I was on a right downwind when I did mine. But at my home drome we always fly right traffic to 22R, so it seemed normal.