Flying magazine Mooney vs. Grumman article - Issue 936

[Shadrach]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:43 PM, Pinecone said:

Except Grumman is fixed gear and fixed pitch prop.  Lower maintenance costs and lower insurance costs.

In 56 years and 3500hrs the gear system on my F model has required grease. I replaced the down locks in 2022 out of an abundance of caution. They were far from failure. Nevertheless, it will always be just an F model.

[Pinecone]

Just now, Shadrach said:

In 56 years and 3500hrs the gear system on my F model has required grease. I replaced the down locks in 2022 out of an abundance of caution. They were far from failure. Nevertheless, it will always be just an F model.

You are still paying more for your annuals to have the gear swung and rigging checked.  And more for insurance

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, Pinecone said:

You are still paying more for your annuals to have the gear swung and rigging checked.  And more for insurance

True but it’s trivial. The additional costs are overstated. All airplanes are (or should be) on jacks for annual. Anyone who’s done a preload check knows it takes less than 20 mins all in. Figure an hour at annual for swing, lube and preloads. In today’s hard insurance market, annual insurance premium is a little over 3% of hull value for my F. It used to run as little as 1.6% of hull. The CS prop adds to the costs as well but the difference is trivial over 2000hr. I’m sort of glad that vintage Mooneys have been misrepresented in the GA fleet as cramped and poor load carriers. It keeps them accessible. There is no certified airframe that offers the performance of a box stock C model and requires so little in return in terms of mx and insurance. Especially those with manual systems. Every gear and flap cycle gives the owner tactile verification that everything is functioning as it should. 

[Pinecone]

Realize, I did buy a Mooney.

But the Tiger is nice for a simpler airplane.  And they are a hoot to fly.

Both are the fastest in their class.  A Tiger is faster than most 200 HP retracts, EXCEPT Mooneys.

[Shadrach]

57 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Realize, I did buy a Mooney.

But the Tiger is nice for a simpler airplane.  And they are a hoot to fly.

Both are the fastest in their class.  A Tiger is faster than most 200 HP retracts, EXCEPT Mooneys.

Not detracting from the tiger. I like them. Have some right seat time in an AA5B. It would push through 130Kts but only just… Enjoyed evening cruises over the Indiana countryside at 1000ft agl with the canopy back. It would probably outrun a Beech Sierra but that’s not stiff competition. 

[carusoam]

AM General..(?)

aka Grumman

aka mail trucks….

not agriculture… AG

-a-

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Not detracting from the tiger. I like them. Have some right seat time in an AA5B. It would push through 130Kts but only just… Enjoyed evening cruises over the Indiana countryside at 1000ft agl with the canopy back. It would probably outrun a Beech Sierra but that’s not stiff competition. 

It will outrun an Arrow.

130 or so is the original prop.  The Sensenich removes the yellow arc on the tach and adds something like 10 knots to it.

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

AM General..(?)

aka Grumman

aka mail trucks….

not agriculture… AG

-a-

American Aviation - Turned BD-1 into AA-1, developed 4 place AA-5 Traveler.  No idea what happened with -2, -3, and -4..

Grumman - Turned AA-5 into AA-5A Cheetah and AA-5B Tiger.  Roy Lopresti (yes, the same one as Mooney M20J 201 fame) did the work.

Gulfstream - Bought the line for the jets and killed the piston aircraft.  Did produce the Some some singles and the twin Cougar under the GA type (GA-7) for a short time.

American General - purchased and revived the Tiger as the AG-5B with some upgrades.

Tiger Aircraft - Purchased the type certificates and restarted production.  Even ones with G1000

True Flight Holdings - Current owner of type certificates.  Makes parts and "plans" on resuming production.  Hmm, sounds like Mooney.

 

[carusoam]

Sounds awfully familiar…

https://trueflightaerospace.com/latest-news/

-a- 

[aviatoreb]

I wonder what the Grumman tiger woujd have been like if it eventually got a 300hp continental like the Mooney did?

I think the coolest thing about the grummans is that sliding canopy and the idea of flying with the canopy open and your elbow tanging out in the wind.  That’s the one thing the Mooney doesn’t do better.

[Pinecone]

You can't quite get the elbow out, as the limit is about 6 inches in flight.

Not sure about a 300 HP engine, but maybe 200 or 210 (IO-390).  Maybe a turbo version.

What I would really like to have seen would have been the evolution of the GA-7 Cougar.  It was built as light light twin to compete with the Seminole and Duchess, with )-320s.  But the concept was that it could be expanded and upgraded to a 6 place with 250 or more HP engines.

[A64Pilot]

On 4/10/2023 at 6:09 AM, Pinecone said:

 

True Flight Holdings - Current owner of type certificates.  Makes parts and "plans" on resuming production.  Hmm, sounds like Mooney.

 

I had talks with someone, likely these guys 15 years or so ago, they were going to build the plant in Valdosta Ga and restart production. I was going to build parts for them as we had the excess capacity and we had a PC of course.

Beyond the initial talks nothing happened.

Personally I want my metal airplane riveted together, not glued.

The adhesive will I believe eventually fail and that will be the end of the aircraft, but I’ve not looked into it at all.

[geoffb]

Rented one for a trip a couple years ago when between the E type and the 262.  Found it felt smaller inside than the E and was a pain to load baggage into, and my wife travels light.

Nice control feel and easy to fly.

Very much like a Mooney in that it isn't as fast as owners say they are ;-)

My father had one many years ago.  I think the first delamination issues were in the wing skin trailing edges.  A small line of rivets is the repair.   Glue is great until it's not.