Dual GPS NAVCOM use

[donkaye]

21 minutes ago, cbarry said:

With all of the gizmos available, does anyone still practice partial panel anymore or has it become simply a function of flying off of a full function backup when something “fails?”

For me let's put it this way; I won't teach the instrument rating or go IMC in any airplane that doesn't have 2 functioning attitude indicators.  Why would anyone take the risk of needle, ball, and airspeed only in this day of relatively inexpensive digital attitude indicators?  If someone doesn't have the judgment to recognize the value of a second AI, I don't have the confidence that they have the judgment to maintain their airplane properly.

[Guest]

On 2/25/2023 at 2:10 AM, hais said:

Isn't a second NAV/COM required for IFR?

In Canada, not the US.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, rickseeman said:

I think you want dual GPS NAV/COM. There should be some bargains out there on 530W/430W takeouts. There are many advantages. I leave the 430 on the nearest screen. If the engine quits I can look down and instantly see which way to turn to the nearest airport.

While still great radios, the parts supply is almost gone and then support will end.  Installing 15-20 year old equipment with a limited life span, takes the same labour and installing new equipment.

[cbarry]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

For me let's put it this way; I won't teach the instrument rating or go IMC in any airplane that doesn't have 2 functioning attitude indicators.  Why would anyone take the risk of needle, ball, and airspeed only in this day of relatively inexpensive digital attitude indicators?  If someone doesn't have the judgment to recognize the value of a second AI, I don't have the confidence that they have the judgment to maintain their airplane properly.

Don, I’m not passing judgement on anyone’s decision to load up a panel or go with the basics.  I’m simply curious if partial panel training/practice is still a skill set that pilots hone.  I agree wholeheartedly with your point as well.

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

For me let's put it this way; I won't teach the instrument rating or go IMC in any airplane that doesn't have 2 functioning attitude indicators.  Why would anyone take the risk of needle, ball, and airspeed only in this day of relatively inexpensive digital attitude indicators?  If someone doesn't have the judgment to recognize the value of a second AI, I don't have the confidence that they have the judgment to maintain their airplane properly.

I guess that excludes those like me who got their instrument ratings and flew in actual with one vacuum-driven attitude indicator, a dual nav/com, an ADF, no GPS,  and no autopilot. 

[midlifeflyer]

18 minutes ago, cbarry said:

 I’m simply curious if partial panel training/practice is still a skill set that pilots hone.  

I guess the question is, what do you mean by "hone."

Due to the availability of glass PFDs, the name of the task has been changed to "loss of primary flight instruments." But it means more. If you are in an airplane with a backup attitude indicator, you fly the backup., not needle, ball, and airspeed.

Even needle, ball and airspeed became easier with GPS. But it's still an emergency.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I guess that excludes those like me who got their instrument ratings and flew in actual with one vacuum-driven attitude indicator, a dual nav/com, an ADF, no GPS,  and no autopilot. 

When I started teaching the instrument rating 29 years ago, there were no inexpensive AI alternatives.  I definitely taught needle, ball, and airspeed for partial panel.  Castleberry was one of the first to offer an inexpensive electrical backup AI.  I purchased one immediately in April of 2006.  Out came the TC and in went the Castleberry in about ½ hour.  All the way up to the introduction of the G5 I did trainings and flew IMC with students in airplanes without a backup AI.  With the introduction of the G5 that changed.  I have read about so many accidents that had occurred as the result of vacuum pump failure.  Why put yourself in that type of situation now when you can inexpensively resolve the issue with a relatively inexpensive backup alternative?

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I guess that excludes those like me who got their instrument ratings and flew in actual with one vacuum-driven attitude indicator, a dual nav/com, an ADF, no GPS,  and no autopilot. 

Heck, my military IFR flying was a single nav.  In the A-10 we did have multiple comms.  No ADF, no GPS, no INS, no autopilot.

We did have a mini back ADI.

[AIREMATT]

On 2/25/2023 at 8:57 AM, Jim Peace said:

I like having dual GPS and triple IRS at work...There must be a way to do this in a Mooney...

There is…Pour more money at the problem. If you have an unlimited budget you can have Almost anything:).

[PT20J]

On 2/25/2023 at 12:25 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

No. I’ve flown IFR in a plane with a single navcom. It’s a PITA sometimes. But those days are gone, just follow the magenta line…

Yeah, remember doing intersection holds with one VOR?

[PT20J]

On 2/25/2023 at 7:22 PM, donkaye said:

For me let's put it this way; I won't teach the instrument rating or go IMC in any airplane that doesn't have 2 functioning attitude indicators.  Why would anyone take the risk of needle, ball, and airspeed only in this day of relatively inexpensive digital attitude indicators?  If someone doesn't have the judgment to recognize the value of a second AI, I don't have the confidence that they have the judgment to maintain their airplane properly.

Well, actually, I decided I need 3. Like all the jets. Mechanical AIs usually fail in a pretty catastrophic way. That may not be so with ADAHRS based systems. For instance, my G3X GSU 25D and the G5 continually compare attitude solutions and if they don't agree they annunciate a MISCOMPARE error. But, it's up to the pilot to determine which is lying. So, I installed an inexpensive AV-20-S so I'd have a tie breaker.

For me attitude is critical and nav/coms come next. A GPS is nice, but I learned to fly long before they were available and I'm confident I can get down safely with vectors to an ILS.

Skip

[N201MKTurbo]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

Yeah, remember doing intersection holds with one VOR?

Sure, set your inbound radial, get established, switch to your crossing radial, when you cross it switch back to your inbound radial.

 

I’ve never tried this with the Avidyne and G5 combination. I’ll have to try it next time I’m doing approaches. I’m sure the Avidyne will keep trying to help.

[midlifeflyer]

19 hours ago, donkaye said:

When I started teaching the instrument rating 29 years ago, there were no inexpensive AI alternatives.  I definitely taught needle, ball, and airspeed for partial panel.  Castleberry was one of the first to offer an inexpensive electrical backup AI.  I purchased one immediately in April of 2006.  Out came the TC and in went the Castleberry in about ½ hour.  All the way up to the introduction of the G5 I did trainings and flew IMC with students in airplanes without a backup AI.  With the introduction of the G5 that changed.  I have read about so many accidents that had occurred as the result of vacuum pump failure.  Why put yourself in that type of situation now when you can inexpensively resolve the issue with a relatively inexpensive backup alternative?

Absolutely agree about the incredible advantages of backup AI. I'll also agree that vacuum failures in solid clouds is a potential killer, and replacing steam with AHARS glass is a great thing.

But refuse someone training, whether initial or recurrent, because of their decision not to add it?  Especially when I've read that most instrument  light GA pilots who fly IFR have very little hard IFR exposure? No.

 

[jlunseth]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:06 AM, midlifeflyer said:

I guess that excludes those like me who got their instrument ratings and flew in actual with one vacuum-driven attitude indicator, a dual nav/com, an ADF, no GPS,  and no autopilot. 

Partial panel is a different beast now. If you have a moving map, maybe you get to keep its direction indication and possibly even course deviation. Maybe you still have your iPad except that, for me, the pitch-bank indication you might get from a portable is not reliable, but course is pretty good. Many resources on a modern panel, need to figure out what you have left and what it can tell you.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Partial panel is a different beast now. If you have a moving map, maybe you get to keep its direction indication and possibly even course deviation. Maybe you still have your iPad except that, for me, the pitch-bank indication you might get from a portable is not reliable, but course is pretty good. Many resources on a modern panel, need to figure out what you have left and what it can tell you.

It happens in stages. For those who had backup attitude, it was a different beast a long time ago. GPS - both certified and uncertified - tames it a little. I remember practicing  partial panel  with a GPSMap 396 (my friend/regular safety pilot was amazed how I flew with that) . The removal of vacuum from the equation has been a huge step. 

Absolutely - one needs to understand the equipment one has, its failure modes, and what it can do to get you to safety. The biggest danger is the equipment between our ears thinking that all the tools means it's not an emergency. 

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Absolutely agree about the incredible advantages of backup AI. I'll also agree that vacuum failures in solid clouds is a potential killer, and replacing steam with AHARS glass is a great thing.

But refuse someone training, whether initial or recurrent, because of their decision not to add it?  Especially when I've read that most instrument  light GA pilots who fly IFR have very little hard IFR exposure? No.

 

All the more reason to have a backup AI.  I'm sure there are other instructors who might be willing to take on the added risk.  I have no issue with someone else doing training in such an airplane.

[M20F]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:22 PM, donkaye said:

For me let's put it this way; I won't teach the instrument rating or go IMC in any airplane that doesn't have 2 functioning attitude indicators.  Why would anyone take the risk of needle, ball, and airspeed only in this day of relatively inexpensive digital attitude indicators?  If someone doesn't have the judgment to recognize the value of a second AI, I don't have the confidence that they have the judgment to maintain their airplane properly.

I won’t teach anyone who won’t buy a twin.  Flying IFR in a single, craziness.

[T. Peterson]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:46 AM, donkaye said:

An analogy: The Coach section of an airplane arrives at the same time as the 1st Class section.  But the flight is a totally different experience.

My 750Xi has the audio panel and transponder interface.  It's so much easier to use than the separate units.  OTOH you lose 4 data fields.  The 650Xi makes up for that and 2 more.  At other times I use it for additional weather and traffic when I'm using the other displays for other things.  Using the Waypoint function I can load ATIS and Ground for destination in a couple of seconds--at the hold short line before I even takeoff from the departure airport.  I have 3 types of weather, XM, ADS-B, and Stormscope.  That means I can have, for example, XM on the TXi, Stormscope on the 750, and ADS-B on the 650 at the same time.  There are so many more  options available.  Add an iPad and an Aera 760 and you have even more.

Garmin has a variety of units to fit everyone's pocketbook.  Each has its advantages and disadvantages.  In the end it's a question of whether you decide to go Coach or 1st Class.

I guess I am just tuned for 2nd fiddle! I just make the best of coach and am grateful to be out of the baggage compartment!

[T. Peterson]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:22 PM, donkaye said:

For me let's put it this way; I won't teach the instrument rating or go IMC in any airplane that doesn't have 2 functioning attitude indicators.  Why would anyone take the risk of needle, ball, and airspeed only in this day of relatively inexpensive digital attitude indicators?  If someone doesn't have the judgment to recognize the value of a second AI, I don't have the confidence that they have the judgment to maintain their airplane properly.

Absolutely. I wouldn’t take delivery on my airplane till a 2nd AI was added. However I am  confident with one GPS, two Com radios and a 2nd Nav. The 2nd Nav is VOR only, no ILS which is not ideal, but not a huge concern. Frankly, my IPad is a great source of comfort navigationally and actually provides a third AI if things really went south.

 I think the OP was inquiring about backup GPS which is lovely if the budget permits, but is in no way equivalent to the necessity of a backup AI.

[Vance Harral]

With all this talk of people who won't fly IMC without various forms of backup, I'll throw in my pet peeve: pilots who don't actually train with their backup tools.

For me, if we're actually going into the clouds, I'm open to all kinds of backup strategies.  But I want to know that either myself or the person with their hands on the controls has actually used their backup AI at some point.  Every time I do instrument training, I make it a point to get the student to actually fly with their backup.  It's often an interesting exercise - many of them find it to be much more distracting than they thought to reference a perfectly good attitude indicator that's just not in the spot they're used to seeing it.  Even in the now ubiquitous dual G5/GI-275 setups, where the backup is only a couple of inches away, the error rate is pretty high until they settle in to a new scan pattern.  I wouldn't want to be doing it for the first time in IMC.  But I certainly run across people who are primed to do just that - they're very proud of their backup strategy, but then I find out they've never actually used it to fly for a full 20-30 minutes and shoot an approach.

I'm more liberal than Don about what I'll go into IMC with, but certainly respect his position.  Everyone has their personal concerns, myself included.  Mine is that I consider a portable AHRS and a iPad to be a pretty sketchy backup, not really adequate for hard IMC.  As I said, I make my instrument students (and myself) fly with backup, and I've seen the portable solutions go south too many times to trust them.  Sometimes it's the grossly comedic suction cup failure, where the AHRS hardware literally tumbles off its mount.  But what's much creepier to me is that I've seen at least two Stratus/Stratux/Sentry devices just wander around in roll (a little) and pitch (a lot), even when firmly secured in place.  I don't know what causes this, but I hypothesize that it has to do with the fact that all these inexpensive MEMS gyros devices need aiding to be accurate, and whatever aiding is built in to the portables just isn't is good and/or has more trouble with vibration and flexing given their ad-hoc mounting mechanisms.  Throw in the fact that the tablet typically used to display attitude is down on the yoke, or over near the window or whatever, and the performance I observe from those doing the flying is commonly quite bad.  Again, at least until they settle in, get used to any glitching, etc.

Whatever your backup strategy, if you fly IMC you should be training often; and if you're training often, try to do it fully 50% of the time with your backup AI.

[T. Peterson]

On 2/26/2023 at 8:06 AM, midlifeflyer said:

I guess that excludes those like me who got their instrument ratings and flew in actual with one vacuum-driven attitude indicator, a dual nav/com, an ADF, no GPS,  and no autopilot. 

Do ya still have that papyrus certificate? I had my stylus bronzed!

[Pinecone]

Wow, we have come a ways from flying hard IFR with a single AI, a DG (NOT HSI), a Turn and Bank or Turn Coordinator and paper charts and approach plates.  And dual VORs and an ADF for nav.  

Well equipped had a DME.  Super well equipped had an RNAV and electronically moved the VOR station.  ONE at a time.   And you might have a single axis autopilot.

My Dad flew hard IFR with only a DF (not ADY< manually turned), no VOR or DME.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Do ya still have that papyrus certificate? I had my stylus bronzed!

LOL! No. It wasn't a momento I cared about keeping.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I bought my first Mooney in 84 it had a DME! I thought I was the hottest pilot on the field! I flew IFR with that plane all the time. My backup was the electric turn coordinator. I flew approaches with the DG and Attitude indicator covered at least once a year. It gets easy after a while.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I bought my first Mooney in 84 it had a DME! I thought I was the hottest pilot on the field! I flew IFR with that plane all the time. My backup was the electric turn coordinator. I flew approaches with the DG and Attitude indicator covered at least once a year. It gets easy after a while.

That is not the point.  We don't ride horses any more for travel.  Why use old technology that can get you into trouble when you have an inexpensive alternative that is much safer?