Electroair's dual mag EIS approved

[mhrivnak]

More news from Sun n Fun. Electroair got approval this past Friday for their EIS replacement for the Bendix dual mag. Pricing starts around $6k right now as a "show special" for the whole kit, which includes a backup battery, display for your panel, new ignition switch, spark plugs, leads, etc.

I was in a Lycoming talk about their EIS, and the presenter said roughly: "If you have a dual mag, use Electoair's new replacement. It's great." It sounds like Lycoming is even considering using that as the only mag option in the future for overhauls they do of dual-mag engines.

Installation is not trivial. The battery and control box both get installed aft of the firewall. It's good to have them out of the heat (unlike surefuly where the electronics are inside the housing that's bolted to the engine), but there's wiring to be done. There's also the ignition switch to replace, display to put in your panel, new ignition leads to run, and the prop has to come off to install a new ring on the crankshaft.

It seems pretty expensive vs. switching to an engine with independent mags, but if for some reason you want to keep an A3B6D or other dual-mag engine and also want EIS, this is an option now.

[N201MKTurbo]

Wow, that’s like 6 overhauls…

I wonder what the instructions for continued airworthiness say?

[toto]

So glad to hear this news the same month that I spent $3k on an IRAN

[carusoam]

Somebody has to go first….

-a-

[toto]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Somebody has to go first….

-a-

I was seriously considering it when Electroair announced pending FAA approval two years ago. But my 500-hour was coming up fast and I finally had to go ahead and do it. So now I’ve got another 500 hours to think about it

 

[carusoam]

There isn’t much electroaire experience around here… compared to the other guys…

One got installed on an Ovation… and then was quickly un-installed after that…

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

37 minutes ago, toto said:

I was seriously considering it when Electroair announced pending FAA approval two years ago. But my 500-hour was coming up fast and I finally had to go ahead and do it. So now I’ve got another 500 hours to think about it

 

I've seen a lot of electroair complaints and many un-installs with their standard EIS system, so I would not want to be an early adopter of this system - especially given its your entire ignition system unlike a single mag replacement! It might turn out to be a great system, but I would give it plenty of time to get any issues worked out in the field and be able to hear positive feedback before making the switch. Just my opinion.

[MikeOH]

I've never been a fan of bleeding-edge products.

I'll let someone else beta test something that my life may depend on, thank you very much.

[toto]

26 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I've seen a lot of electroair complaints and many un-installs with their standard EIS system, so I would not want to be an early adopter of this system - especially given its your entire ignition system unlike a single mag replacement! It might turn out to be a great system, but I would give it plenty of time to get any issues worked out in the field and be able to hear positive feedback before making the switch. Just my opinion.

Thanks for that - agree 100%

[N201MKTurbo]

I just looked at their website. It shows the price as $4995 if you give them your dual mag back. I wonder what the deal would be with my turbocharged IO360A3B6D.

[rbp]

I had to look this up: http://electroair.net/6cylignitionKit.html

Smooth Power site says: "Electroair offers both experimental and certified systems for most four and six cylinder Lycoming and Continental engines. Electroair's systems are FAA/PMA certified for most single and twin applications. We just received FAA approval for the Dual Mag Replacement System (April 2022). The information is so new we have not been able to update our website; please contact us for more information."

 

[MB65E]

I currently work on a 2016 Cubcrafters X-Cub with an o-360 on it. It’s set up with one electoair right mag. On our delivery flight the mag failed. Looking back in the logs. The system had failed 3 other times in the past. This was the 4th. The airplane has less than 500hrs on it. I replaced the electro mag and put 2 dual impulse coupling slick mags. I hate slick mags, but they work better than the dead electro mag. Multiple issues with the coil, harness, etc. pictures attached. I wouldn’t put it on any airplane I cared about. 
-Matt 

[carusoam]

Nice detailed electroair pirep Matt!

Thanks for sharing it…

Quite the cautionary note for a twin mag set-up…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

 

[A64Pilot]

Thing is, electronic ignition is a actually a very simple thing, no magic here, crank sensors are usually used but no reason one couldn’t go where the mag used to go, from there it’s just coil packs and the ignition box.

Personally if I were designing one, I’d put a generator/ timing sensor in the old mag drive spot and forego a back up battery, it would be primary power with aircraft electrical system as back-up.

Modern auto ignitions are pretty much bullet proof, it ain’t rocket science

[toto]

On 4/8/2022 at 8:45 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

I just looked at their website. It shows the price as $4995 if you give them your dual mag back. I wonder what the deal would be with my turbocharged IO360A3B6D.

This is now listed at $6995 on the Electroair website. You pay $7995 and they give you back $1000 when they receive your old mag core. 

I’m feeling a little less bad about my $3000 IRAN now

 

[alextstone]

6 minutes ago, toto said:

This is now listed at $6995 on the Electroair website. You pay $7995 and they give you back $1000 when they receive your old mag core. 

I’m feeling a little less bad about my $3000 IRAN now

 

Wow, that's a lot of hardware to install and a lot of failure points

 

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, alextstone said:

Wow, that's a lot of hardware to install and a lot of failure points

 

I was just thinking that, that if this system were the state of the art and somebody showed up with a "new technology" magneto that was much simpler and didn't need a battery to operate and was self-powered and independent of the electrical system, people would be scrambling to buy it.

[A64Pilot]

27 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I was just thinking that, that if this system were the state of the art and somebody showed up with a "new technology" magneto that was much simpler and didn't need a battery to operate and was self-powered and independent of the electrical system, people would be scrambling to buy it.

It’s easier to buy existing parts than it is to produce parts to fit into an existing Mag housing, but other than that I seeno reason why it couldn’t be done, with a simple power wire to aircraft power to provide back up power, or maybe the aircraft is primary with the internal generator back up, Mag check would be as simple as remove airframe power if engine still runs normally, it’s good.

Money has to be the reason, only a very few of these ignition systems will be sold each month.

I think however that a simple power wire and switch for testing to airframe power would be simpler than dual generators, but with independent mags, yes there would be no need for airframe power as you have independent, redundant systems, an electronic mag isn’t a difficult problem, making money from one might be.

Graduate level if you would, would be individual coil packs on each plug like is done with automobiles.

Of course to carry it further, use automotive plugs, and drop the $135 aircraft spark plugs

Edited April 10, 2022 by A64Pilot

[MikeOH]

48 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Thing is, electronic ignition is a actually a very simple thing, no magic here, crank sensors are usually used but no reason one couldn’t go where the mag used to go, from there it’s just coil packs and the ignition box.

Personally if I were designing one, I’d put a generator/ timing sensor in the old mag drive spot and forego a back up battery, it would be primary power with aircraft electrical system as back-up.

Modern auto ignitions are pretty much bullet proof, it ain’t rocket science

As a career EE that has actually designed switched HV circuits I'm not going to arrogantly claim it's "rocket science" but it is ANYTHING but a "very simple thing". There is a good reason that auto ignition systems are pretty much bullet proof; there was a HUGE amount of R&D behind that reliability that I am NOT seeing in these 'experimental' turned 'certified' aircraft ignition systems.

As @EricJ astutely pointed out, the VERY well developed and proven VERY reliable existing magnetos would look pretty damn attractive for aviation application (stationary engine operation) if we'd been living with complicated electronics before!

Sometimes new stuff is a solution looking for a problem that really doesn't exist!

IMHO

[A64Pilot]

I run a single drive mag and will continue to do so, as I think there is little to be gained from electronic. I am not a fan of advancing ignition timing after talking to a couple of Hartzell prop Engineers about the problems it could cause, plus any increase in efficiency is small.  I don’t think putting a system together from existing automotive components would be that hard, nothing say compared to a new glass screen GPS / ILS approach system, or an autopilot, yet those are done. Everything is relative as to what’s hard

Apparently the money exists for “glass” that doesn’t exist for ignitions, perhaps as you say because the mags aren’t broke, or maybe it’s just they don’t look impressive like glass does?

But isn’t support for the dual mags pretty much gone? If so unless someone starts producing parts again, something will eventually have to replace them

Edited April 10, 2022 by A64Pilot

[toto]

9 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

But isn’t support for the dual mags pretty much gone? If so unless someone starts producing parts again, something will eventually have to replace them

Kelly has a PMA now to make every component of the dual mags including the housing. They don’t sell these as “new” mags, but they can literally replace every single component on inspection.

I know this because my mag just came out of IRAN and they essentially replaced every component including the housing. The IRAN was $3k but I’ve got what amounts to a brand new D3000. 

Or at least that’s what I tell myself to sleep at night

 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Thing is, electronic ignition is a actually a very simple thing, no magic here, crank sensors are usually used but no reason one couldn’t go where the mag used to go, from there it’s just coil packs and the ignition box.

Personally if I were designing one, I’d put a generator/ timing sensor in the old mag drive spot and forego a back up battery, it would be primary power with aircraft electrical system as back-up.

Modern auto ignitions are pretty much bullet proof, it ain’t rocket science

PMA, permanent magnet alternator. I agree it is better than the battery thing. Pratt and Whitney uses it for FADEC power on their engines. Engine turns, the FADEC has power. I too believe that electronic "mags" should be PMA powered.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, toto said:

This is now listed at $6995 on the Electroair website. You pay $7995 and they give you back $1000 when they receive your old mag core. 

I’m feeling a little less bad about my $3000 IRAN now

 

The picture and part number seem to suggest a six cylinder system.

[toto]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The picture and part number seem to suggest a six cylinder system.

Wow, you’re completely right. I was looking at the wrong page. 

Here’s the correct product page. Much cheaper.