consequences of retracting flaps on roll out!

[aaronk25]

 

I did about the dumbest thing I have ever done in my 800 hours of flying today.  It seems in gusty conditions I have made a habit of flipping the flap switch up after contact with the runway in order to decrease some lift and more firmly plant the wheels on the ground.  Today I paid the price.  I had a couple things going on, maybe a blank stare off in to space or something and I grabbed the gear knob instead.  I felt the gear move and engaged my brain and immediately returned the gear knob to its rightful place, went to full power pulled back but it was too little too late.  It made a half heated attempt at flying and sat down on her belly on the runway at full power (2700) rpms, or close to it.  A few bangs, and a bunch of scraping and there I sat on the runway.  My 4 month old (to me) M20J on her belly with a prop and hub completely destroyed.  

I turned off the fuel master and avionics and got out and looked at the peril of what my lack of focus earned me.  

So if I have any advice for a member on the forum it is don't dump the flaps on roll out, you have enough going on when landing just keep "flying the plane" on roll out.  Any gain in from dumping the flaps is very minimal.  Its been said before but I thought I would offer a real world lesson that I learned the hard way.

The good news is the only thing hurt was some parts and my pride.  Hoping to get her back in the air soon!

Aaron

 

[pjsny78]

I am so sorry to hear this story. i just bought a M20J and now i am going to be replaying your situation in my head. i pay a small fourtune for my insurance premium i would hate to think about a big rate increase after a gear up. i am glad to hear that you are ok and no one was hurt. can i ask what airport this happened at?

[1970m20e]

That's why I like my M20E.  The gear retracting is on the panel and the flaps are on the throttle quadrant.  It's very hard to forget which one does what.

[aaronk25]

This isn't heping my case but The M20J has the flap switch next to the throttle quadrant and the gear up near the top of the panel.  It was a serious mistake on my part.  If you ever had one of those moments where you maybe were daydreaming or something at the wrong time, well I did it on roll out.  I remember thinking at the time when I reached for the lever "that was a great landing 15 knot cross wind component and I put the wheels down right where I planned.  I only have about 100hours in the last 4 months in this plane and I can grease the landings every time and I think I am pretty proficient in it, (tell today).  I learned a lesson today, no matter how trivial the task, focus on what is at hand.  

It wasn't winds gusting to 40Kts or a ice covered runway that got me, it was me taking away my focus for just a bit, because "hey the work is done right"?

Aaron

 

 

[DaV8or]

Quote: 1970m20e

That's why I like my M20E.  The gear retracting is on the panel and the flaps are on the throttle quadrant.  It's very hard to forget which one does what.

[sleepingsquirrel]

At least the gear switch is in the right position, when the landing stopped. I feel for you and could have been telling a similar tale of woe from a landing I made short of the threshold just Saturday. Living and flying , cheating death ,yet once again!

You are still among the luckiest people on Earth, even with a bent Mooney! All the perfect landings you will make from now on will never be more memorable than this one. As time marches  into the future the same mind , the one with the brain fart, will paint this entirely  differently. Were there any witnesses? If so I know a guy that knows a guy..........

disclaimer:

It's been said , "there are those who have , and those who will", but I know  my Mooney has bagged its limit of two.

I'm sure you will recover ,

[jetdriven]

Glad you are OK Aaron.  There was a similar thread on this board with a heated debate of the pros and cons of doing touch and goes in a Mooney.  Maybe this will change a few minds.

[lahso]

Thanks for your story, and sorry to hear about your bird, Aaron. Glad you are unharmed. Now, get her fixed by a good shop and back in the air!

[PTK]

Think positive! There are some glasses half full here. You'll get a new prop, a smooth one piece belly if you didn't have it, and an engine opened up and inspected! Also you'll never do that again!! It reminds me back in my private days we were doing touch and goes in the Cherokee 180. I had this bad habit of cleaning flaps too soon before positive rate. Well one day I did it and fortunately I cought my old private instructor Bill, by surprise! I say fortunately because he made darn sure I broke that bad habit! He proceeded and drilled into my head so loud I still remember his voice ringing in my ears! "...don't EVER EVER EVER do that again!!!" He of course took his blood pressure med, calmed down and thoroughly explained why! I've never dared do that again!

Aaron, glad you are well! Your Mooney will be fine. Get her fixed and see you back up in the air!! 

[sleepingsquirrel]

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=78781

Heated discussion about flaps on roll out, I have manual flaps and manual gear. I could I make the same mistake as well. 

[Ned Gravel]

Aaron:

You are going to beat yourself up a long time over this and I am only going to give you one piece of wisdom here - earned the hard way from a 2003 gound loop in our (11 partners) 1969 Piper Arrow. Many others that have experienced something similar (even Jolie when she mushed into the trees after her engine quit many years ago).

As Sleeping Squirrel (that wisest of rodents) intimated, you will remember (and gain) from this experience. 

Learn.  Live.  And move on.  Believe it or not, you will probably be a better pilot because of it.  If you can forgive yourself.

My $0.02.

 

[GeorgePerry]

Aaron,

You certainly take the prize for the most stunning "first post ever" on mooneyspace.  But that's why we pay our insurance premiums.  Good luck gett'er flyin again.

[Becca]

Quote: aaronk25

 

This isn't heping my case but The M20J has the flap switch next to the throttle quadrant and the gear up near the top of the panel.  It was a serious mistake on my part.  If you ever had one of those moments where you maybe were daydreaming or something at the wrong time, well I did it on roll out.  I remember thinking at the time when I reached for the lever "that was a great landing 15 knot cross wind component and I put the wheels down right where I planned.  I only have about 100hours in the last 4 months in this plane and I can grease the landings every time and I think I am pretty proficient in it, (tell today).  I learned a lesson today, no matter how trivial the task, focus on what is at hand.  

It wasn't winds gusting to 40Kts or a ice covered runway that got me, it was me taking away my focus for just a bit, because "hey the work is done right"?

Aaron

 

 

 

[aaronk25]

 

Hey thanks for all the "glass half-full" comments.  The FAA man tracked me down and said that he has seen some Mooney incidents where the push pull rods that extend and retract the gear have slightly bowed do to hard landings and don’t allow the over center locking mechanism to completely lock and the result there has been gear collapses on landing and when he heard there was a gear incident in a Mooney he wanted to do a full inspection of it because there was another instance where the gear collapsed on landing.  I fessed up and told him what I did, as the last thing us Mooney owners need is another A.D.

It probably would have been believable that the “gear collapsed on landing” as the push/pull rods did get bent, but not from normal use, but from attempting to carry the weight of the plane while I put the gear back down.  Anyways, I took the heat on this, however it is amazing how fast the FAA wanted to point to the Mooney gear and launch a investigation.  

There probably is some truth to the bent push/pull rods so it might be a good idea to stick your head up in the wheel wells and insure there isn’t any bow to the tubes. 

I just installed the new Gamin 650 and GPSS steer in it prior to the incident and I can’t wait to get back in the air.  I’m also President of our flying club in MN where we have 5 aircraft, (182, 172, Archers and Warriors) so I’ll get back up soon, but nothing is like the Mooney. 

I believe our club may soon purchase a Mooney as many of the members really like the efficiency and apparent quality of the plane.  You can really tell when they designed these planes someone really put a lot of thought into it.

This whole less makes me feel a lot better about having a “retract” in our club because there is a concern that someone won’t put the gear up on landind and get hurt, however it was nothing more than a slightly hard landing and a couple bangs and skidding to a stop.  

 

 

 

 

[skyking]

Aaron: Add me to the " my heart goes out to you " list.

Glad nobody was hurt as pride and parts can be healed....

I think everybody here has had one of those learning moments, myself included. Get her back in the air and you will be a better pilot for it.

 

Good luck.

 

Russ

[fantom]

"There but for the grace of God......"

No injuries, so all will be corrected. Thanks for sharing!

[gregwatts]

Aaron, I think it took "brass balls" for you to own, admit, and publish your mistake for others to take note. You are not the first, and certainly may not be the last, to make this same mistake. The silver lining in all this, is that others have the opportunity to learn from this. Your ego and plane are bruised, but you are alive and well and able to hopefully prevent this from happening to others.

Good Luck and thanks for sharing the "experience".

[1964-M20E]

Sorry to hear about that.  From the photo it looks like you could lift it up and fly it. :-))

 

 

[Becca]

This whole less makes me feel a lot better about having a “retract” in our club because there is a concern that someone won’t put the gear up on landind and get hurt, however it was nothing more than a slightly hard landing and a couple bangs and skidding to a stop.  

 

[jetdriven]

The problem with "that's what insurance is for" , in cases like this its a 40K payout every time it happens. Another Mooney gets either scrapped or repaired, and all of our insurance premiums go up. 

Insurance is for hailstorms, tornadoes, and engine failures.  Training is for preventing accidents like this. 

Quote: GeorgePerry

Aaron,

You certainly take the prize for the most stunning "first post ever" on mooneyspace.  But that's why we pay our insurance premiums.  Good luck gett'er flyin again.

[jetdriven]

You actually can.  Fix the gear down with some breaker bars and hose clamps, dial the crank flange, stick a loaner  prop on it, and ferry it to a shop on a permit.

Quote: 1964-M20E

Sorry to hear about that.  From the photo it looks like you could lift it up and fly it. :-))

 

 

[Seth]

Aaron-

I'm glad you are safe, and I'm sorry to hear about the gear up/flap up.  I flew out of a short field for a long time and it was standard procedure to retract the flaps immediately after touchdown.  However, that was when I was in a manual gear F model.  I now have electric gear and electric flaps - I have not yet attempted a touch and go in the new plane. 

My F model was geared up by the previous owner on a go around due to an airplane taxing out in front of him to depart when he was on final.  He put the gear up, flew the upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, and landed.  He forgot to put the gear back down. 

In the new plane even though I do not have my manual gear, I still check three times, downwind, base, final for gumps, gumps, green light over the fence.  I've missed some of the callouts, but not all three. 

Do make sure your emergency extension gears, and frankly, your gears in general did not get torn up due to the "collapse."  I was told by my instructor, to let the gear run a full depolyment or retraction and not stop the process halfway as it is not good for the gears.  Obviously, you made the right choice here to immediatly try to stop the retraction process, but it was too late. 

Example:  get on downwind and lower the gear only to be told by the tower to extend base for 4 miles for multiple aircraft on downwind (or soemthing like that).  Not that you would, but if you retract your gear before it has lowered fully, it is evidently (and I have techicnaly expertise on this) very bad to cruch the gears and have them go the other way.  Is that correct?  Has that been what others have been told.

Again, Aaron, good luck with the repairs and thank you for the warning.

Take care,

 

-Seth

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

 

[Hank]

Quote: Seth

My F model was geared up by the previous owner on a go around due to an airplane taxing out in front of him to depart when he was on final.  He put the gear up, flew the upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, and landed.  He forgot to put the gear back down. 

In the new plane . . . I still check three times, downwind, base, final for gumps, gumps, green light over the fence.  I've missed some of the callouts, but not all three. 

I was told by my instructor, to let the gear run a full depolyment or retraction and not stop the process halfway as it is not good for the gears.

My C has a similar history to your F, except the go-around involved a tower and switching runways as additional distractions. Patched belly, swapped prop and flew on a permit to repair. Many older retracts have kissed asphalt once. Fix it right and it will fly well again.

My "system" verifies green light on gear down, checks green light on base, feels switch position and checks floor indicator on final. Often I double-check the green light near where I imagine an airport boundary would be, which is after I clear the durn trees [watching them go under me is quite important! too far under me is bad.]. Shorter fields are fun; shorter, obstructed fields make you proficient! I usually get at least two of the checks made, the feel & floor check on final is the most important.

As for stopping the gear during swing, that would be quite difficult. I'll check when the snow clears up, but I don't think I could stop the movement after taking my hand off the switch. Move the round thing, drop hand to throttle, raise hand to switch--I think the light will already be green. On the go, move the round thing, hand to throttle and feel the thump under the seat.

[TonyPynes]

I am just gettin my M20F back from a teardown and inspection as a result of taxiing into a small hole(didnt see it) on the tarmac. Prop only needed dressing but A&Ps and Insurance wanted it torn down. (Lets not got there)

So the only thing I missed is the belly scrape (mine is one piece due to previous owner gear up) and of course the excitement of landing without the gear.

My insurance company did a great job. I am low hour and this is my first plane, bought four months ago too.

I suspect my premium may inch up some but I have nothing but praise for the insurance company involved. Starr.

So, you will get past it and as others have said, shows a lot of courage to post it here. I know when I taxied to a very lightly scraped prop and had to have it torn down I felt pretty dumb. Human beings...we make mistakes and miss things.