G1000 life cycle and diminishing value

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, TGreen said:

I shoot GPS approaches without WAAS all the time. Bought my O2 5 years ago and pretty sure it has appreciated about $40,000 since then.

The value of the WAAS…

Is shooting a GPS approach in IMC, down to 200’ AGL…

My ILS receiver works as my get out of jail free card…

Because my non-WAAS GPS doesn’t give the vertical guidance that would be Oh So nice…. 

Of course, how much IMC you get every year depends highly on where you fly….

 

As time creeps on…  the ILS, like the VOR, and the ADF before them…   Seem to be creeping towards the junk pile….

And I only have one ILS receiver… that is aging….  I should work on a second… 

My local ILS receiver is about 30nm rom my home drome… a long Uber if I need to execute this plan…

Wondering how hard it is for the document group at big G… to fire up the STC machine and pump out all the STCs they need for customer support of purchasing new navigation hardware…

They demonstrated Great skills for launching the GFC500… but that includes flying various models of planes….

Navigating different models of planes is more simple than flying different planes…

 

PP thoughts only, not an avionics STC writer…

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

On 10/21/2021 at 9:55 PM, Schllc said:

I have yet to meet a single person who owned a legacy g1000 and regretted or didn’t like it, but lots of people who have never owned one seem to enjoy bashing.

If you want to find legacy G1000 owners upset, you don't have to look far. The Diamond forum has plenty. But it's not about bashing or disliking the G1000 system. It's great. I love it. Looking through this thread and based on other discussions I've seen, it's  more about upgrade paths - their absence.

One could say you don't miss what you don't know. Teaching in TAAs - including the G1000 - I've discovered the single most complex basic activity is a coupled ILS to a missed approach. That's mostly because of the relative ease of a GPS approach to identical LPV minimums - substantially less button pushing. That simplicity leads more and more WAAS owners to prefer LPV  to ILS where both are available. But it's not something I which I would expect a non WAAS pilot to even think about. I sure didn't think of a G1000 ILS as being "complicated" when I started flying them more than 10 years ago. 

I am not an owner and I haven't flown one in a Mooney but I have experience with them and other glass as renter, club member, and instructor. Interesting to see a similar vintage 172 and DA40 where the 172 has advanced features the DA40 doesn't. Not because of lack of money but because of an OEM or Garmin decision not to provide a path. You don't see that with other glass upgrades. 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[Schllc]

11 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

If you want to find legacy G1000 owners upset, you don't have to look far. The Diamond forum has plenty. But it's not about bashing or disliking the G1000 system. It's great. I love it. Looking through this thread and based on other discussions I've seen, it's  more about upgrade paths - their absence.

One could say you don't miss what you don't know. Teaching in TAAs - including the G1000 - I've discovered the single most complex basic activity is a coupled ILS to a missed approach. That's mostly because of the relative ease of a GPS approach to identical LPV minimums - substantially less button pushing. That simplicity leads more and more WAAS owners to prefer LPV  to ILS where both are available. But it's not something I which I would expect a non WAAS pilot to even think about. I sure didn't think of a G1000 ILS as being "complicated" when I started flying them more than 10 years ago. 

I am not an owner and I haven't flown one in a Mooney but I have experience with them and other glass as renter, club member, and instructor. Interesting to see a similar vintage 172 and DA40 where the 172 has advanced features the DA40 doesn't. Not because of lack of money but because of an OEM or Garmin decision not to provide a path. You don't see that with other glass upgrades. 

 

I didn’t say upset, I said regretted owning. All systems have things some people don’t like, or wish they could change.
That being said, I agree the lack of a waas path, as well as the inability to use flight stream is idiotic and upsetting. 
But I would still prefer a non Waas g1000 to steam gauges.

if a g1000 from a diamond doesn’t have features available in a Cessna, that is 100% the manufacturers choice. Garmin configures as ordered. 
It seems to me the g1000 should have come configured the same for every plane, rather than having different interfaces. 
Fly a Mooney and then a cirrus with the g1000. It may as well be a different brand. 
This never made sense to me, but I’m pretty sure manufacturers drove these choices.

[GeeBee]

For the last 7 years of my career, I flew the Airbus A330, arguably one of the most advanced airliners in the sky. Until 2014, we did not have WAAS. Even after getting WAAS we were not approved for LPV approaches. I find my WAAS upgraded G1000 with STec 55x highly capable and all the "yes but" noted within this thread are situations that few pilots find themselves. I find GA pilots want "it" because they make "it" but they seldom have use or utility for "it" and could make do with a VOR or ILS approach. Is "it" nice, heck yeah but is "it" operational necessity? Seldom. 

[LANCECASPER]

3 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

For the last 7 years of my career, I flew the Airbus A330, arguably one of the most advanced airliners in the sky. Until 2014, we did not have WAAS. Even after getting WAAS we were not approved for LPV approaches. I find my WAAS upgraded G1000 with STec 55x highly capable and all the "yes but" noted within this thread are situations that few pilots find themselves. I find GA pilots want "it" because they make "it" but they seldom have use or utility for "it" and could make do with a VOR or ILS approach. Is "it" nice, heck yeah but is "it" operational necessity? Seldom. 

All of the airports that the A330 goes into everyday can hardly be compared to the small GA airports that a lot of our Mooneys go into. If all I flew into were Class B airports why would I need anything but an ILS?

[GeeBee]

You ever done the VOR 13 L/R to JFK? The VOR to Manas Kyrgyzastan? I've had to do the NDB to Edinburgh, Scootland. Ditto Accra, Ghana.  Not everything is sunshine and lollipops. In the third world, the ILS is not always operative. Point is this. Operationally you can get the job done without all the fancy stuff and it is seldom is a must have. I'll add that most airlines have a circling minimum of 1000'-3 unless the charted is higher, so actually they are more hamstrung when things break.

You know until RVSM, if the autopilot was inoperative, you were expected to fly 5 legs in weather, manually.

 

[Will.iam]

Still do just 28,000 and below. 

[Raptor05121]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:52 PM, GeeBee said:

First of all, they are called LRUs for a reason. "Line Replacable Unit". Meaning you fix it by pulling the old one out and putting a new or refurbished unit in. My experience with Garmin rebuilt units has been superb. Not cheap, but solid. 

 

This. My previous employer operated a fleet of 208s with G1000s and anytime we had trouble, they came out with an alley key and a box and simply pulled a screen out, swapped in a new one and sent the other one off. Coming from an owners point of view watching this, it definitely gave me pause.

 

GeeBee, even our CRJs aren't approved for LPV, and most are newer NextGen models.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Raptor05121

[GeeBee]

54 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Still do just 28,000 and below. 

Yep, that's in the MEL, but my line threw in the towel on no A/P dispatch. With the emphasis on preventing altitude busts, they had a hard time justifying no A/P dispatch. But you remember even on the B727 unless you had the Block 5 A/P you did not have altitude capture!

 

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, Schllc said:

But I would still prefer a non Waas g1000 to steam gauges.

Perhaps, if those were the only two options. My point is they are not. 

[Alan Fox]

6 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The real point is that G1000-equipped Mooneys currently don’t have ANY options.  And there is a very good chance that they never will.  

Jim

Because of the limited amount of aircraft , I can safely say , they NEVER will , unless The Mooney TC , is acquired by Textron , which makes no financial sense at all.....The factory is now for sale with an asking price of 15 Mil.... There are still a few G1000 Tigers out there , Our Mooneys are in the same boat...

 

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The real point is that G1000-equipped Mooneys currently don’t have ANY options.  And there is a very good chance that they never will.  

Jim

And really, that's what it comes down to. "Regretting" a prior decision without the ability to have known there was a limited future is a useless exercise. The G1000 question is more about, would I buy an airplane equipped with one now? That's a tougher one. 

[cliffy]

Just thinkin out loud-

I wonder what percentage of the fleet actually flies regularly in weather lower than 600-1?  

Want it 'cuase its made opposes want it because I'll use it

Perception vs reality

How many 200 - 1/2 ACTUAL approaches are actually flown in the fleet every year? Month?

My take? If you are not doing a couple a month (in actual below 600-1 weather) you may not be current enough to be really safe. 

And if you haven't hand flown a low approach in months you ain't safe period in that kind of weather. 

We can go down the rabbit hole of autopilot cripples but that is another discussion. 

 

[Alan Fox]

3 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Just thinkin out loud-

I wonder what percentage of the fleet actually flies regularly in weather lower than 600-1?  

Want it 'cuase its made opposes want it because I'll use it

Perception vs reality

How many 200 - 1/2 ACTUAL approaches are actually flown in the fleet every year? Month?

My take? If you are not doing a couple a month (in actual below 600-1 weather) you may not be current enough to be really safe. 

And if you haven't hand flown a low approach in months you ain't safe period in that kind of weather. 

We can go down the rabbit hole of autopilot cripples but that is another discussion. 

 

Pretty much this....

[jetdriven]

One problem is the future unsupportability of the legacy g1000 hardware.  The OEM’s engineer the NXi upgrade path but in this case Mooney isn’t interested.   Some point in the future you’re going to pay a ton for some kind of retrofit STC.   

[cliffy]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

One problem is the future unsupportability of the legacy g1000 hardware.  The OEM’s engineer the NXi upgrade path but in this case Mooney isn’t interested.   Some point in the future you’re going to pay a ton for some kind of retrofit STC.   

Absolutely agree hence my original commentary. They may turn out to be much like the PFM Mooney. Mostly a boat anchor rotting away in a dark hangar somewhere. 

[LANCECASPER]

What I don't get is that the Mooney Ovation Ultra and Acclaim Ultra have the Garmin Nxi.

Why couldn't they have also gone a step further and certified the Nxi for the G1000 Mooneys? That would have made a nice income stream for Mooney on the upgrades if they insisted that the upgrades be done in Kerrville.

[GeeBee]

8 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

What I don't get is that the Mooney Ovation Ultra and Acclaim Ultra have the Garmin Nxi.

Why couldn't they have also gone a step further and certified the Nxi for the G1000 Mooneys? That would have made a nice income stream for Mooney on the upgrades if they insisted that the upgrades be done in Kerrville.

That is what I keep saying. There is plenty of money in this fleet to be mined. Someone needs to go get it. From G1000 upgrades to cowls, to interiors. If you have an NXi upgrade and an owner does not buy it, the plane will be a dog on the used market so the pricing should not be a problem. Ditto cowl and gross weight increase..

 

[cliffy]

Question- How many G1000 Mooneys are still flying?

Divide the cost to recertify by that number

Pick a cost figure and double it to be in the ball park

What do you have as a quotient?

Double that for cost of insurance

Add in profit %

How much per airplane?

How many currently flying G1000 owners would be willing to pay the bill? 

If only half would buy in would the remaining 50% be willing to cover the entire bill? 

Its strictly a financial decision for all parties involved

[GeeBee]

I have set aside 50K for an NXi upgrade.

 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I have set aside 50K for an NXi upgrade.

 

When Textron did the STC for the Bonanza/Baron they charge $4000 for the Nxi upgrade STC and allow and Garmin dealer to install it. Garmin gets $28,995.

https://www.bonanza.org/community/member-forum/modifications/posts/jul-2019/gamrin-announces-g1000-nxi-for-g36-g58/

 

It would be awesome if you could just go straight from the non-waas G1000 Mooney to the Nxi.

EDIT: It looks like on some airframes that's possible

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/662319/pn/NXi-G1000-UG#additional

[cliffy]

12 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

When Textron did the STC for the Bonanza/Baron they charge $4000 for the Nxi upgrade STC and allow and Garmin dealer to install it. Garmin gets $28,995.

https://www.bonanza.org/community/member-forum/modifications/posts/jul-2019/gamrin-announces-g1000-nxi-for-g36-g58/

 

It would be awesome if you could just go straight from the non-waas G1000 Mooney to the Nxi.

Yes but reading all the comments on the included link it all stops back at 2020 with no more info or comments on IF really does what what the title says. 

[GeeBee]

It is available now.

 

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/retrofit-g1000-nxi-availability-expanded/

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, cliffy said:

Question- How many G1000 Mooneys are still flying?

Ovations… approx s/n 333 x 519, plus a couple after 2008.  Call it 175 flying in North America

Acclaim approx s/n 1 - 129 plus up to 137 in 2015-16.  Call it 110 in North America.

Bravo s/n 353 and up.  Dunno how many that is

-dan

Edited October 25, 2021 by exM20K

[Alan Fox]

36 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Ovations… approx s/n 333 x 519, plus a couple after 2008.  Call it 175 flying in North America

Acclaim approx s/n 1 - 129 plus up to 137 in 2015-16.  Call it 110 in North America.

Bravo s/n 353 and up.  Dunno how many that is

-dan

Not enough