carusoam Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 Certain things don’t seem to always make it to the sale of the plane... Do you have access to the last owner, for questions like this? Knowing the owner can be a great advantage... Unfortunately, some owners are not around when it comes time to pass the keys... All the bucket of detail that they know goes with them... Often, POHs, logs, and tow bars go missing... a battery board is probably even difficult to recognize as being a convenience until you are looking for it... It is good to have a young spry mechanic to fit in places ordinary humans want to avoid... Going inside the tail cone can be a very hot and uncomfortable place... when outdoors... Great to see you made contact with The Rocket people. PP thoughts only... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBrown Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 11 hours ago, aviatoreb said: It would be nice if there were an access port on the side of the tail, like a hole in the skin. My understanding, The fuselage cage does not go that far back. The tail is a stressed skin/ monocoque construction. Too large of a hole would compromise the strength too much. The 5 rivets circled in the picture are for the new battery tray added to missiles and rockets 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 The LBs have what you may be looking for... Two batteries, two access panels... One on the other side, further back.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rspencer612 Posted May 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 12 hours ago, carusoam said: Certain things don’t seem to always make it to the sale of the plane... Do you have access to the last owner, for questions like this? Knowing the owner can be a great advantage... Unfortunately, some owners are not around when it comes time to pass the keys... All the bucket of detail that they know goes with them... Often, POHs, logs, and tow bars go missing... a battery board is probably even difficult to recognize as being a convenience until you are looking for it... It is good to have a young spry mechanic to fit in places ordinary humans want to avoid... Going inside the tail cone can be a very hot and uncomfortable place... when outdoors... Great to see you made contact with The Rocket people. PP thoughts only... Best regards, -a- I have contact with the last 2 owners spanning 12 years. But both are more “pilots,” rather than “owners” or “mechanics” if you know what I mean. They flew the plane, but didn’t get to know or understand it. They didn’t suspect issues and try to learn about the airplane, just accepted it as it is. Probably why they experienced a few incidents. Some pilots just don’t care to understand beyond the PPL................ we will get it resolved now! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missile Posted May 18, 2021 Report Share Posted May 18, 2021 On 5/5/2021 at 8:04 PM, Rspencer612 said: Are you talking about the 70lbs of weight the dual batteries provide from the STC way aft of the baggage compartment? I don’t know of any baggage weights. Darwin from Rocket emailed me today, we aren’t sure who re over the weights at the 197.5 station, but they were there when they built it. He says they have them so I am waiting for his reply and price and shipping time! No the weights I am talking about are in the baggage department. literally a bag of sand that has #70 Lbs on it. I also have the dual batteries placed 2-3 feet aft of the original 201 battery box. Hope this helps i am interested in your research and final analysis hoping it will solve my Weight and balance questions. jOhn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 18, 2021 Report Share Posted May 18, 2021 2 hours ago, missile said: No the weights I am talking about are in the baggage department. literally a bag of sand that has #70 Lbs on it. I also have the dual batteries placed 2-3 feet aft of the original 201 battery box. Hope this helps i am interested in your research and final analysis hoping it will solve my Weight and balance questions. jOhn It’s quite possible that somebody put the bag of sand to improve the WnB to match their personal needs... Two heavy people in the front seats can really drive the balance to the front edge of the envelope... So a 70 pound bag of sand would improve the elevator control and trim for slow flight... In some cases... some Mooniacs want the balance to be set on the back line to minimize drag caused by controlling the attitude with the elevator... It would be unusual if a bag of sand got used as a permanent Charlie weight.... mostly because it isn’t mounted permanently... and a much smaller weight can be used when mounted in the tail cone... A proper Charlie weight would save a lot of UL... PP thoughts only, Not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missile Posted May 20, 2021 Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 On 5/5/2021 at 8:04 PM, Rspencer612 said: Are you talking about the 70lbs of weight the dual batteries provide from the STC way aft of the baggage compartment? I don’t know of any baggage weights. Darwin from Rocket emailed me today, we aren’t sure who re over the weights at the 197.5 station, but they were there when they built it. He says they have them so I am waiting for his reply and price and shipping time! I did a deep dive into my paperwork for the missile and could not find any official reference to the 70lbs in the aft section of the baggage area. Yet it is there., I remember the previous owner stating emphatically that 70 LBS needed to be there for single pilot flight. When I land with full flaps single pilot I am at my trims nose up limit. So it works seems to be needed. What do you think ?? As I stated my Weight and balance is in question and I am very interested in this topic. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 20, 2021 Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, missile said: I did a deep dive into my paperwork for the missile and could not find any official reference to the 70lbs in the aft section of the baggage area. Yet it is there., I remember the previous owner stating emphatically that 70 LBS needed to be there for single pilot flight. When I land with full flaps single pilot I am at my trims nose up limit. So it works seems to be needed. What do you think ?? As I stated my Weight and balance is in question and I am very interested in this topic. John Single pilot ops in many Mooneys can easily have the trim all the way up... When transitioning into my M20C... I was il-advised by my trainer... when he said when you fly a Mooney, you can never have enough up trim... The Missile is known for its heavy engine mounted over the front wheel... But not known for needing temporary bags of weight... If they are needed... there is a better way. If the extra weight barely gets you in the envelope... something more obvious should be found... Without the weight... and you go out of the envelope... That wouldn’t make sense while writing an STC to submit to the FAA... If the added weight puts the cog at the back of the envelope... that is a sign that the prior owner knew his WnB, and liked the speed that it allowed... PP WnB thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBrown Posted May 20, 2021 Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 Charlie weights are part of the balance adjustment when Rocket finishes the conversion. Without them the aircraft IS NOT airworthy. I can’t imagine anyone with any aviation knowledge removing them. With 2 standard people and nothing else in the plane it should be just inside the forward limit. That is how they left Spokane. Everything else added to the plane moves the CG rearward. You are smart to not fly as is. Someone was ignorantly trying to kill themselves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 22 hours ago, missile said: I did a deep dive into my paperwork for the missile and could not find any official reference to the 70lbs in the aft section of the baggage area. Yet it is there., I remember the previous owner stating emphatically that 70 LBS needed to be there for single pilot flight. When I land with full flaps single pilot I am at my trims nose up limit. So it works seems to be needed. What do you think ?? As I stated my Weight and balance is in question and I am very interested in this topic. John Something is amiss with your plane. I fly my Missile single pilot all the time. I have no weight in the luggage compartment. My trim is generally 2/3 to 3/4 but never, ever all the way. I have an 8 lb Aerosafe Standby Vac, WX500 module and the Century Autopilot box in the tail within a foot of the baggage compartment wall. But they don’t weigh anything close to your bag of sand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 11 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: Something is amiss with your plane. I fly my Missile single pilot all the time. I have no weight in the luggage compartment. My trim is generally 2/3 to 3/4 but never, ever all the way. I have an 8 lb Aerosafe Standby Vac, WX500 module and the Century Autopilot box in the tail within a foot of the baggage compartment wall. But they don’t weigh anything close to your bag of sand. BTW. I also fly sometimes with copilots of various weight. I do not add any weight in the baggage compartment then either. And I don’t notice any material change in nose up trim. As said above I have never dialed in full nose up trim in flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missile Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: BTW. I also fly sometimes with copilots of various weight. I do not add any weight in the baggage compartment then either. And I don’t notice any material change in nose up trim. As said above I have never dialed in full nose up trim in flight. 1980 Mooney our planes sound similar I am 24-0954 would you mind sending me your weight and balance numbers? just for reference. I will PM you thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 My Missile is annual so I took a picture of the Charlie weights for you. There are three stacked and bolted together (there is a smaller one under the large one in the middle) and yours should look like this: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 Nice work 1980! Very thoughtful... Seeing if @Rspencer612 is flying by... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: My Missile is annual so I took a picture of the Charlie weights for you. There are three stacked and bolted together (there is a smaller one under the large one in the middle) and yours should look like this: Those look like inch-thick steel plates. I thought someone said they are lead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 13 minutes ago, Hank said: Those look like inch-thick steel plates. I thought someone said they are lead? hmmmm... Looks like a small bag of rocks could work equally well... There is enough room for various materials to be used there... The interesting thing... it is bolted in two directions... not just one... Wonder if it is painted steel... or a nice stainless... upon further review... looks like it got alodined... and mostly wore off... Nice catch Hank! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, carusoam said: hmmmm... Looks like a small bag of rocks could work equally well... There is enough room for various materials to be used there... The interesting thing... it is bolted in two directions... not just one... Wonder if it is painted steel... or a nice stainless... upon further review... looks like it got alodined... and mostly wore off... Nice catch Hank! Best regards, -a- Looks like cold rolled, low carbon steel plate to me, milled to size (kind of) not ground, with the original edge of the large plate showing on the side. The horizontal bolt provides extra security against deceleration breaking the plates loose to carom through the fuselage, say in a sudden stop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Hank said: Looks like cold rolled, low carbon steel plate to me, milled to size (kind of) not ground, with the original edge of the large plate showing on the side. The horizontal bolt provides extra security against deceleration breaking the plates loose to carom through the fuselage, say in a sudden stop. Those are the original unfinished/uncoated lead Charlie weights installed in 2001. They have been exposed to the humid and corrosive gulf coast air for 20 years. If they were carbon steel they would be a rusted mess. Mooney may use steel. There was a topic on 252 balance that showed the mooney parts. They are green and the total weight is only 19 lbs with 3 weights. I think Rocket made special weights heavier lead weights. No ballast on my M20K 252, maybe required... - Modern Mooney Discussion - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts Mooney Charlie Weights in a 252: From the M20K Service Manual Edited May 26, 2021 by 1980Mooney 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rspencer612 Posted June 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2021 Well gents, sorry it’s been awhile. Life has been busy to say the least. I got the 19lbs of weights from Rocket, they are green like the Mooney M20K ones above, a little different than 1980Mooney’s. Guessing Rocket sources from same location. Rocket Engineering assured me when I ordered that the weights would have been THERE when it left their shop. weights arrived and we opened up the tail. to install, and guess what? No holes for the three bolts……….guess it didn’t leave Rocket that way………..so I had the holes drilled and weights installed. plane flies beautifully. Needs 2/3 to 3/4 trim nose up on landing with 2 adults up front and no luggage. Very balanced controls, and elevator position appears only slightly draggy in normal cruise flight. per the numbers, it’s still nose heavy. It could really use an owner with a bigger wallet who could afford a new 4 blade MT prop to shave 30lbs off that nose…….but it isn’t that lucky. Lol. I have flown it now single pilot, 2 big guys up front, 3 big guys total, family of 4, and with our B Kool A/C in the baggage compartment. It’s very stable and on landing doesn’t seem much if any heavier than M20K’s I have flown, or 182’s ect. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rspencer612 Posted June 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2021 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rspencer612 Posted June 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2021 Here is the weights we installed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 30, 2021 Report Share Posted June 30, 2021 Great follow-up Rs. With pic! Now with gravity… What’s with the paint that doesn’t stick? If it didn’t have mounting holes… These probably weren’t pre-flowned… +1 for picking a great first owner… they install some of the coolest gadgets… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rspencer612 Posted June 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) Wish I knew why some of the paint inside It is missing, maybe bad prep? And the weights he sent me look old and possible used too. Lol. Who knows. I found it very odd that Rocket said the plane would not have left without the weights, but the plane didn’t have the mounting holes for the weight bolts……..couldn’t have left that way without it? So old owner removing theory is in the dust! This is my second Mooney owned, but I have bought and flown many for my clients. I have time in most all the K and earlier models. But I must say WOW to the Missile. Man does it perform in comparison! Edited June 30, 2021 by Rspencer612 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 30, 2021 Report Share Posted June 30, 2021 The spare parts manager at Rocket just solved a decades old mystery… There is one plane that left the factory without its Charley weights… They waited…. Knowing some customer would call and ask for them… Finally, the day has arrived… mystery solved. Bonus… they got paid for the same bricks twice… Much better to have the plane in the proper WnB window… no matter the cost of the charleys…. It would be too easy to make a simple error and be outside the window without them… PP humor only… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnstormer Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 I just bought a M20J 300 Missile and have the complete logs since purchased including the missile upgrade, I will scan the calculations and post the in a few days. Charlie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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