TheStig Posted March 24, 2021 Report Posted March 24, 2021 Has anyone replaced their sealed lead-acid batteries (concorde ?) with lithium batteries like these: https://earthxbatteries.com/product-category/certified-aircraft If so, how did you get the approval. Or are there products with an STC? Thanks, Stig Quote
A64Pilot Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) These surely are a LifePo4 battery and while they are lithium, they are not like Li-ion or Li-Po, they have about half the energy density, but way, way safer, you just about can’t make them burn. ‘Taking them at their word you should be able to install them under a field approval. ‘But why? What’s wrong with the Concorde? Cranking amps isn’t really that important, it’s what’s called reserve capacity that is, that’s what’s going to run all of your electronics and lower you gear when your IFR and have to fly an hour to get to an approach and you alternator quits. Surly they are at least meet the Concorde’s reserve capacity, but I would make sure before i spent the money. ‘Oh, and be sure your OK with the CG change, it wouldn’t make much sense to have to add lead ballast to offset the weight you saved from a battery to stay within CG Edited March 25, 2021 by A64Pilot 1 Quote
GeeBee Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 According to the specs, the max charging is 70 amps which creates a problem for some aircraft for even a field approval. Quote
A64Pilot Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 Just now, GeeBee said: According to the specs, the max charging is 70 amps which creates a problem for some aircraft for even a field approval. They should have an onboard BMS or battery management system as Lithium has some special charging needs, and a BMS could keep charge amps within spec. A lot of should’s and could’s, But all this will be addressed in the field approval I’m sure Quote
carusoam Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 Great idea... How much does it cost... How much does it weigh... My batteries sit next to my lead weights... If I get a lighter battery, I would need more lead... Have you seen the price of official lead Charlie weights..? If they weigh half as much as a Concorde, I could have four batteries... If i went Fiki, installed an O2 system, and loaded in the AC system... now we’re talking! I could sell the fancy lead blocks! Call me less than interested... Best regards, -a- Quote
GeeBee Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 According to the installation manual the BMS is integrated with the battery. Quote
carusoam Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 Let’s see... The 24V version is only 1amu... Hoping somebody has an upside for these... Can it be used in the harsh environment of an M20C’s front cowl location? Best regards, -a- Quote
TheStig Posted March 25, 2021 Author Report Posted March 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, carusoam said: Great idea... How much does it cost... How much does it weigh... My batteries sit next to my lead weights... If I get a lighter battery, I would need more lead... Have you seen the price of official lead Charlie weights..? If they weigh half as much as a Concorde, I could have four batteries... Call me less than interested... Best regards, -a- How about adding a composite prop on the front to offset the reduced weight in the back? MT shave ~15-20lbs off and McCauley boast 35 lbs savings. Quote
carusoam Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 Just now, TheStig said: How about adding a composite prop on the front to offset the reduced weight in the back? MT shave ~15-20lbs off and McCauley boast 35 lbs savings. It wasn’t available when I bought my TopProp... The TopProp is so heavy, the XC batteries were helpful to add more weight to the balance section... As far as being on the leading edge, technology wise... I have to use the proven technology... can’t afford to do it twice... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
philiplane Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 From the Comanche Forum yesterday: "I ended up calling them and talking to one of the techs. Wow, what a story. I asked for guidance on the ETX900 and I was asked into which certified aircraft I would like to install the battery. After some quick research on their end, they gave me quite a bit of information. According to EarthX the 80amp limitation isn't a problem for the PA-30 since each individual alternator puts out 70 or less. (I have generators, that's a no go anyway, but if I had alternators, it would be acceptable.) But that doesn't matter because according to them it's not legal anyway without a field approval. And, again according to them, these are unavailable. They have a battle on their hands with regards to the field approvals. According to the tech I had an involved conversation with, 4 months after they earned TSO on the ETX900 the FAA informed them that as a matter of policy they would no longer allow field approvals for the installation of the battery and commensurately instructed all field offices not to issue field approvals for any ETX900 installation. They then informed EarthX they would need to seek an STC for installation of the battery. EarthX is two years into that process and they hope to announce the STC sometime soon, but it's specifically for aft-of-firewall installation only. The company is considering the pursuit of a second STC which would allow firewall forward installation. I was asked if installation in my nose cone was consider firewall forward. The tech wasn't entirely sure, but figured it probably would be. I asked rather bluntly if there was any path for legally installing the battery into any certified aircraft, single or twin, at present, and was told, "the answer we have no choice but to give for now is no. The FAA is not granting field approvals and it is not possible to install this battery without one." They also said their battery was popular in Alaska, and I definitely heard a chuckle when that statement was made. Last but not least according to EarthX they are in the process of working with American Champion to legally install the EarthX in new ACA aircraft under the type certificate of the aircraft itself rather than via STC or other approval process. So there you have it. It's a no go for the PA-30, but not due to the charging limits. It also appears to be a no go for ALL aircraft at present. Again, this is word from the company, so in the case of disagreement... don't shoot the messenger. " Quote
GeeBee Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 After the 787 debacle, I am sure no one wants to sign a field approval for any Li battery regardless of its design. TrueBlue Power has an STC for the A36 and that is the only SE I know of that is approved. Equally so, I am sure the FAA cannot make TrueBlue seek STC and not do the same to EarthX. EarthX has to suck it up, respond to the competitive pressures and work through STCs. Quote
carusoam Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 The website is full up of wishful thinking... The mere mention of certified aircraft, but the total lack of certified airplanes the device is certified for... Looks like their marketing got ahead of their legal team, their product development team, and possibly their management... Might be the plane show season is here, and their product isn’t ready... so try to sell the idea, hoping the product approval work can be done sometime.... Don’t be the first person to buy one, unless you have a lot of patience, and a good reason to do so... It takes a ton of effort to go from experimental to certified... Watch how much effort it takes for Big G to certify the same AP in another airframe... In the end... it’s import to do the certification work... we don’t want planes lighting themselves on fire in the middle of a long XC... or have them stop working... or have them overload the electrical system... Generally, just not ready yet... come back when they are ready to discuss the details... PP thoughts only... Best regards, -a- Quote
GeeBee Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 I was holding back, but here goes. Actually, they have been spewing this for at least 4 years. Before I bought my Mooney. The SuperCub community is hard over on the issue of weight of course and EarthX has been trying to sell batteries there, claiming they could be "field approved" because they were TSO'd. So I would not hold my breath on an STC. I will also say right after I sold my PA18 I lent my hangar to a nice fellow from Canada visiting with a Glasair. He had an EarthX battery. On the day he left, he was in a two ship with his brother when he disappeared from his brother's ADS-B display near Chatanooga. His ELT activated. He had, first complete electrical failure followed by fire and smoke. He crawled from the wreckage with broken legs, pelvis and severe contusions. Battery fire is suspected. Not a buyer 1 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) Lifepo4 is extremely resistant to thermal runaway, but no battery is immune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery However what’s different in any lithium chemistry and lead acid is that with Lithium once charged, you really need to discontinue charge to the battery, you can overcharge them, and that cuts into their life etc, Lead acid Ideally is charged with a three stage charger. Bulk and absorption voltage for a Lifeline AGM, which is nearly identical to our Concorde batteries is 14.3V, actually made by Concorde. Once acceptance rates reached .5% of the banks rated capacity in AH, the voltage should be dropped to float, which is 13.3 V for the Lifeline, ideally voltage is adjusted for bank temperature. But lead acid batteries are very tolerant of being fed 14V continuously regardless of the State of Charge, but Lithium isn’t. So Lead Acid can live with a simple alternator that outputs 14V all of the time, Lithium of any chemistry not so much, but a LIFE cell is more tolerant than any other I believe. We just came off of living full time on a Cruising sail boat, and the difference between camping on a boat and a luxurious lifestyle is your battery bank. Lithium is sort the holy grail for many reasons, but the technology just isn’t or wasn’t there to coddle them like is needed, for instance to disconnect the alternator from the battery bank so that you don’t overcharge the lithium is difficult to say the least, it has a tendency to cause the alternator to fail. So what’s needed in my opinion to bring Lithium on mainstream is a complete redesign of the charging system, specially for Lithium, automobiles with their ECU controlled alternators could do it without too much trouble, and they surely will eventually, I suspect they haven’t because lead acid is simply very reliable and cheap, sure they could go to a LIFE battery and lose weight and have a battery that last four or five times longer, but it’s not likely to help sell cars and isn’t cheaper, so why? Our Toyota Prius with its rather large traction battery bank, has a standard 12V automotive battery to initially boot up the cars computer and run the interior accessories etc. Why did Toyota use a regular lead acid battery for that? My guess is so that Jim Bob in his tow truck can jump start you if you run down the battery, where he can’t the big traction battery. Edited March 25, 2021 by A64Pilot 1 1 Quote
GeeBee Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 IMHO, AGM technology is so good and so safe and reliable it is hard to justify the expense of Lithium. If you have a severe weight issue sure, but for most DC applications AGM is pretty robust. I just pulled three AGM's from my boat because they barely passed the capacity test.......after 8 years. Replacement cost was 200 per unit. Pretty hard to justify anything else. I at one time blew up an AGM trying to rescue it after my grand daughter left the bilge pump on for two days. No spill, no electrolyte leakage, just a burst point at the case seam. Pretty hard technology to replace. Basically I use AGMs in everything. Boat, cars, airplane. Quote
Jerry 5TJ Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 15 hours ago, GeeBee said: TrueBlue Power has an STC for the A36 and that is the only SE I know of that is approved. There are a number of PC12 and Cessna Caravan aircraft using Lithium batteries. In those planes the Li battery is somewhat lighter, has higher capacity and cranking amps, and costs about the same per year of service life as the lead-acid batteries they replace. I do not know of any other SE certified piston engine GA approved yet. Quote
GeeBee Posted March 25, 2021 Report Posted March 25, 2021 As pointed out. Weight savings are great, however, on the long bodies those two batteries are back there for a reason. Remove their weight and you are going to have to do something to replace the moment they provide. Quote
RJBrown Posted March 26, 2021 Report Posted March 26, 2021 No point in any 6 cylinder Mooney. I was happy I had two lead acid batteries in the tail of my Rocket when the alternator came apart. The plane still had Charlie weights. Could have used 3 batteries instead if Rocket had chosen to. Quote
Yetti Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 It's about application. light weight and high amp draw. Perfect for quad copters. GA plane has a current well suited battery. Agree on AGM. had one in my motorcyle and worked for years. Moved it to the ATV and worked more years. Quote
Mooney-Shiner Posted October 26, 2022 Report Posted October 26, 2022 Sorry to bring this thread from the dead. Looks like the EarthX Lithium battery got their STC for the Mooney install. Price is twice of Concorde RG-35 that I have right now ($895 v $435). Also the lithium battery allows the full discharge to zero without damage to the battery, which is not the case with AGM or flooded. EarthX also claims 4000 charge/discharge cycles, which is more than Concorde? One limitation that I noticed: your generator/alternator must put out less than 80 amps. Has anyone tried them yet? Caveat: I live in FL, so no worries about sub 0F temps. Quote
A64Pilot Posted October 26, 2022 Report Posted October 26, 2022 Before you jump on that bandwagon consider a few things. 1. run a W&B, lighter weight won’t help much if it takes ballast to stay within CG, plus as a lot of our batteries are aft of CG and aft CG is more efficient, you may be going backwards with a more fwd CG. In other words the weight you save may be in the wrong place, best to save weight forward of the firewall if W&B allows. 2. Cycle life is irrelevant because we don’t cycle our batteries, we use a tiny bit of SOC to start the airplane, where the alternator takes over electrical loads. That tiny bit isn’t really a cycle 3. Yes LifePo4 should last longer than lead acid, but at twice the price is it worth it? Plus they often don’t die a slow lingering death like LA batteries, they often are fine one day and dead the next so you will likely get less warning as to end of life, the the discharge voltage is very flat, meaning it’s very difficult to determine state of charge from voltage, so again harder to know when one is getting towards the end of its life. I wonder how the yearly cap check is done? Possibly the same, just a much smaller voltage drop? 4. Lifepo4 is safe, very safe, so forget any safety concerns with Lithium, that’s other chemistries. LifePo4 really is a “better” battery if correctly done, but is it worth the extra $$$? Oh, and if you have a battery tender take it home and put it on your lawnmower or something if you do go with Lithium, no Lithium chemistry wants to sit at 100% SOC, Lifepo4 is more tolerant, but it still prematurely ages it, which is just the opposite of lead acid, floating a LA battery likely adds years to its life. You were Marine Force Recon? 1 Quote
Mooney-Shiner Posted October 26, 2022 Report Posted October 26, 2022 14 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: You were Marine Force Recon? Thanks, man. Definitely all great points, and worth of pondering. I like to read your posts. Yes, I made though the wet and cold sun-tanning in BRC, "when I wore a younger man clothes." Where you in Marines as well? Quote
A64Pilot Posted October 26, 2022 Report Posted October 26, 2022 45 minutes ago, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said: Thanks, man. Definitely all great points, and worth of pondering. I like to read your posts. Yes, I made though the wet and cold sun-tanning in BRC, "when I wore a younger man clothes." Where you in Marines as well? No, Army 20 yrs, 6 months, 5 days. Aviation, worked with a lot of Rangers in my Enlisted days and some Delta etc after becoming a pilot, but was never a snake eater myself. Remind me not to piss you off 1 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted October 26, 2022 Report Posted October 26, 2022 Installation is not as simple as just replacing a battery. It requires 2 vent tubes (my box only has 1) and a LED warning light to be panel mounted. So add 8 hours or more of labor to pricey battery. 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted October 26, 2022 Report Posted October 26, 2022 36 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: Installation is not as simple as just replacing a battery. It requires 2 vent tubes (my box only has 1) and a LED warning light to be panel mounted. So add 8 hours or more of labor to pricey battery. It appears to have a separate BMS, a battery spacer that goes into box, pretty sure the vent tubes can be combined to one and attached to the existing tube, but I have not read the instructions, the panel light is I believe one wire, similar install as an alt inop light. The high bucks is for the install kit, pretty sure AC spruce sells the battery for $450, so about the same as a quality AGM. I may consider it after my Concorde dies, but I don’t have to pay an A&P/ IA either and that does factor into it. Although other than weight loss which is considerable, I’m not sure what else you gain. Quote
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