IFR panel dilemmas

[DCarlton]

Speaking of really low budget upgrades, has anyone compared the pin outs on a 430 vs a 430W?  Can the same tray be used?  Does the swap require more than a WAAS antenna upgrade? 

I'm keeping my vacuum pump to drive my DG, TC and A/P.  Will probably change the AI to digital.  Don't understand the need for a backup AI on top of digital AI and vacuum TC.  Seems like we operated with far less for decades. 

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Speaking of really low budget upgrades, has anyone compared the pin outs on a 430 vs a 430W?  Can the same tray be used?  Does the swap require more than a WAAS antenna upgrade? 

I'm keeping my vacuum pump to drive my DG, TC and A/P.  Will probably change the AI to digital.  Don't understand the need for a backup AI on top of digital AI and vacuum TC.  Seems like we operated with far less for decades. 

Same tray can be used. You need to upgrade to rg-400 coax if it wasn't used in the original install.

[DCarlton]

6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Same tray can be used. You need to upgrade to rg-400 coax if it wasn't used in the original install.

I have the same capability as the OP with the addition of a JPI eng monitor.  So for me, I'm planning to slow roll any future upgrades incrementally.  I prefer to install, test, fly.... install, test, fly... install, test, fly.  So... the most I'm planning is to upgrade my older GPS antenna, replace the 430 with a clean newer 430W (or maybe IFD 440), and replace the AI with an AV-30 or G5 (AV30 is a simpler install); and call it done.  My number two radio is a KX-155 with GS/LOC indicator and it's been overhauled by Mid Continent with a new display.  These older radios are great backups.  Should be able to do this for less than $10K.  

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

I have the same capability as the OP with the addition of a JPI eng monitor.  So for me, I'm planning to slow roll any future upgrades incrementally.  I prefer to install, test, fly.... install, test, fly... install, test, fly.  So... the most I'm planning is to upgrade my older GPS antenna, replace the 430 with a clean newer 430W (or maybe IFD 440), and replace the AI with an AV-30 or G5 (AV30 is a simpler install); and call it done.  My number two radio is a KX-155 with GS/LOC indicator and it's been overhauled by Mid Continent with a new display.  These older radios are great backups.  Should be able to do this for less than $10K.  

Which autopilot do you have?

[dominikos]

20 hours ago, dominikos said:

here is a brief update on where this is landing for me… I would love to hear feedback, especially if I’m heading in a completely wrong direction

I did quite a lot of research on options - GI275s, G3X and Dynon. Which ever direction I look, it’s a significant commitment. Surprisingly, both GI275s (old panel) and G3X (new panel) end up costing pretty much the same - this includes: EIS, new audio panel, new radio, upgraded GPS, ADS-B In/Out and AutoPilot (GFC 500).

For those of you interested, those are the prices that I got quoted:

• GI275s, old panel: 65AMUs
• G3X, new panel: 70AMUs
• Dynon HDX, new panel: 44 AMUs including autopilot installation when/if gets certified

Everybody suggests that doing upgrade at the same time is the optimal option.

Given the costs, I came up with low budget option to last me for the next 2-3 years and help me to bridge to the target:

• upgrade non WaaS GPS - GNS 430 to GNS 430W + FS 210: 4 AMUs
• install JPI 900 with Cies senders (part of fuel tank reseal): 8 - 10 AMUs
• keep vacuum pump, use iPad as backup AI paired to FS 210 with Sentry as a backup

The beauty of this option is that it does not commit me to the future path. I can still go either garmin or Dynon, the only downside is that it would increase Dynon option cost by 4 AMUs and I would spend extra 1.5 AMUs for FS 210 that is going to be a regret spend but most likely I can recover part of it.

This option keeps my current panel going for the next 2-3 years, allows me to see what options are available in a few years and save up some more money to do big upgrade at once.

Any thoughts, big downsides to kicking the upgrade can down the road?

Thanks, Dominik

just don’t want to get my question/post lost in side conversation 

[PT20J]

13 hours ago, dominikos said:

just don’t want to get my question/post lost in side conversation 

I just went through this. Three years ago I purchased a low time '94 J that the previous owner had upgraded with an Aspen PFD and GNS 430W. It has a KAP 150 autopilot and KX 165 and vacuum gyro for the autopilot. I added a GTX 345 for ADS-B In/Out. I figured it had sufficient IFR capabilities, attitude  system redundancy, and that there would be a lot of used equipment available to keep it running if something broke. The problem is that the autopilot kept breaking down. (Other stuff broke, too) And I've spent about $10K keeping it running. The autopilot is critical for single pilot IFR nowadays. Tell you why: I got my instrument rating in 1985 in a C-172 with no autopilot, a hand mic, dual VORs, and no DME in the busy SFO bay area. I could fly that airplane to ATP standards and even do intersection holds on one radio. But, the airplane was simple and the avionics was very simple: No buttons to press; no menus to read; no entering alphanumeric data with a minimal user interface; no starting over if I made a programming mistake; controls didn't "time out" and change modes if I got interrupted entering a new frequency. Approaches were simpler. Modern avionics have a lot of capability, but they require a lot of programming. I cannot fly in busy airspace -- especially unfamiliar airspace -- and comply with ever-changing ATC instructions, program the avionics, manage the engine and fly the airplane at the same time. Maybe I could if I did it every day, but I doubt it. So, the most important thing in the modern IFR panel has become a good autopilot.

There have been a lot of promises about low cost autopilots from a various manufacturers, but they always seem to be just around the corner. Garmin's GFC 500 is the only one that is really out in the field. So, I decided to go with that. Because of the way Garmin architected the autopilot, that choice forces your into the Garmin "ecosystem." The GFC 500 is a distributed system. Most of the logic is in the display unit (currently G3X, G5, GI 275). Some of the logic is in the servos. The mode controller is just a user interface and some internal AHRS features for fault detection. So, if you want a GFC 500, you need a Garmin display. 

You are really going to want a WAAS GPS. There are just a lot more approach options. Airports can get GPS approaches without adding expensive ground-based navaids, and some airports may decommission older navaids to reduce maintenance cost of aging equipment. Notice how few NDBs or marker beacons remain. And, you might think that LNAV minimums are good enough because you never intend to fly in really low stuff, but the weather tends to do what it wants and ceiling and visibility forecasts are frequently inaccurate. So the weather can be lower than you expected when you get to your destination. 

Skip

 

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

I just went through this. Three years ago I purchased a low time '94 J that the previous owner had upgraded with an Aspen PFD and GNS 430W. It has a KAP 150 autopilot and KX 165 and vacuum gyro for the autopilot. I added a GTX 345 for ADS-B In/Out. I figured it had sufficient IFR capabilities, attitude  system redundancy, and that there would be a lot of used equipment available to keep it running if something broke. The problem is that the autopilot kept breaking down. (Other stuff broke, too) And I've spent about $10K keeping it running. The autopilot is critical for single pilot IFR nowadays. Tell you why: I got my instrument rating in 1985 in a C-172 with no autopilot, a hand mic, dual VORs, and no DME in the busy SFO bay area. I could fly that airplane to ATP standards and even do intersection holds on one radio. But, the airplane was simple and the avionics was very simple: No buttons to press; no menus to read; no entering alphanumeric data with a minimal user interface; no starting over if I made a programming mistake; controls didn't "time out" and change modes if I got interrupted entering a new frequency. Approaches were simpler. Modern avionics have a lot of capability, but they require a lot of programming. I cannot fly in busy airspace -- especially unfamiliar airspace -- and comply with ever-changing ATC instructions, program the avionics, manage the engine and fly the airplane at the same time. Maybe I could if I did it every day, but I doubt it. So, the most important thing in the modern IFR panel has become a good autopilot.

There have been a lot of promises about low cost autopilots from a various manufacturers, but they always seem to be just around the corner. Garmin's GFC 500 is the only one that is really out in the field. So, I decided to go with that. Because of the way Garmin architected the autopilot, that choice forces your into the Garmin "ecosystem." The GFC 500 is a distributed system. Most of the logic is in the display unit (currently G3X, G5, GI 275). Some of the logic is in the servos. The mode controller is just a user interface and some internal AHRS features for fault detection. So, if you want a GFC 500, you need a Garmin display. 

You are really going to want a WAAS GPS. There are just a lot more approach options. Airports can get GPS approaches without adding expensive ground-based navaids, and some airports may decommission older navaids to reduce maintenance cost of aging equipment. Notice how few NDBs or marker beacons remain. And, you might think that LNAV minimums are good enough because you never intend to fly in really low stuff, but the weather tends to do what it wants and ceiling and visibility forecasts are frequently inaccurate. So the weather can be lower than you expected when you get to your destination. 

Skip

 

The original OP asked if there are any big downsides to kicking the upgrade can down the road.  Curious about your opinion.  I don't think he mentioned whether his equipment was all working and reliable.  If it is, I would tend to say there is no downside to kicking the can down the road.  He's got GPS and dual GS/LOC capability.  I think I would recommend learning to fly IFR and learning to fly the approaches without all the extra video games.  Hand fly the approaches if necessary.  Get your rating that way.  Then step up to whatever panel solution you really enjoy flying depending on your mission.  That's why I suggested the low cost 430 to 430W swap and call it good (but he really doesn't even need to do that).  

Be advised... I'm not a CFI or a mechanic or an avionics tech... just an older engineer that flys a Mooney that's satisfied with rather basic avionics.  

Edited June 20, 2021 by DCarlton

[PT20J]

The advantage to waiting is that there will be more options available in the future.

The disadvantage is that you lose the utility provided by the equipment in the meantime and, to some extent, you have to retrain when you finally do upgrade. 

My main point is that it’s much harder today to upgrade piecemeal because not everything works well with everything else like it used to. The two biggest upgrade risks, it seems to me, are buying something with less capability because you don’t think you will need it and then having to replace it, and buying something and then learning that it won’t work with some other unit you were planning to add later.

Skip

[toto]

This is a little bit off-topic, but the new Aviation Consumer has an article about overhauling a panel under NORSEE using docked iPads as the dominant displays. The company that was the subject of the article is Guardian, and the featured aircraft was this 172:

https://www.guardianavionics.com/smartPlane-System-in-our-Skyhawk-172_c_1126.html

I’m not sure about using an iPad as a PFD/MFD, but it does seem sort of crazy that a very capable radio like the 23-year-old GNS430 has to drive a painfully dated display. The idea of using standalone NORSEE displays that can be upgraded independently from the certified avionics that drive them is compelling.

And obviously there are many people doing this already with a docked iPad displaying data from a certified AHRS or nav source — the unusual thing with the Guardian setup is having three or four iPads mounted in the panel as the dominant feature.

[PT20J]

My main concern with building iPads into the panel is that the product life of an iPad is very short and Apple often changes the form factor with new iPad releases. Remember the concern a couple of years ago about whether Apple was going to drop the mini? An Aera might be a better choice.

Skip

[Cruiser]

the key is the display. The iPads don't actually do anything. They are simply displaying info from other sources. 

Notice all the certified equipment is on the left side, it is the only thing that actually interacts with the airplane. 

Two major concerns with any equipment.

Does it flag or warn of improper or invalid data ?

How can you be sure it is working properly ? 

[toto]

35 minutes ago, PT20J said:

the product life of an iPad is very short

 

31 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

The iPads don't actually do anything. They are simply displaying info from other sources.

Yes, the iPads are not a data source - they're just displaying data from other certified panel-mount devices, augmented with internal data. 

But if you look at something like the 430, its biggest deficiency is screen real estate. It's capable of certified enroute navigation and even WAAS approaches (if purchased as a "W" unit or upgraded). Replacing a GNS with a current GTN or IFD unit is going to be 5AMU at the absolute minimum, and doesn't increase your capability all that much.

An iPad mini is 500 bucks, and even a Mini 1 has shockingly good resolution compared with a GNS. You can display a lot of data on the iPad, and it's augmented with all sorts of interesting EFB stuff. 

Anyway, the idea of having a bunch of iPads augmenting a G5/GI-275 setup is interesting, because the G5/GI-275 will have relevant certified capabilities for the next 20 years, and you can keep swapping cheap displays every few years to get newer/better/cooler display resolution to augment the certified stuff. It's sort of the same concept as the MX20 multifunction display, except that it's as cheap as a consumer electronics device and it has OTA upgradeable apps that cost essentially nothing to keep up with the latest features. (The MX20 was obviously way before NORSEE and it had to clear certification hurdles that wouldn't be needed today.)

When Apple changes the form factor, you've got at least several years before you would need to upgrade the dock and the device, and even then it's a small fraction of the cost to upgrade the navigator.

I have an old iPhone 6 that does nothing but run an attitude indicator from Garmin Pilot. It's displaying data from a panel AHRS source, but it's like six years old and was otherwise destined for the trash bin.

 

[toto]

1 hour ago, Cruiser said:

Two major concerns with any equipment.

Does it flag or warn of improper or invalid data ?

How can you be sure it is working properly ? 

No doubt this is a serious concern. The app makers don't ever want you using their app as a primary display for anything, and they're going to try to avoid being the source of truth for the health of certified avionics. 

I'll resist the "whataboutism" argument that comes to mind about people with a 430 spending most of their time staring at an iPad and ignoring the 430 display. That's basically bad pilot behavior and not the fault of the panel. 

[Mkruger2021]

On 1/18/2021 at 9:08 PM, Ragsf15e said:

I’d do nothing for now.  What you’ve got is plenty capable.  Get your rating, learn more what you like or don’t like.  Talk with people about what they like. Think it through and do it when you really know what you want.  The 430 will give you rnav approaches to non precision mins and ils to 200’.  You shouldn’t be flying approaches that low in the weather as a brand new instrument pilot anyway.  You’ve got time to think.

Absolutely agree, The g430 is great as a trainer, that is what we use at the school....coming from a CFI.....learn and then purchase what you want....You should not be going that low anyhow as a new instrument pilot....

[carusoam]

Panel dilemnas….

1) Upgrade piecemeal… one device at a time…

Bummer… nice idea, but cost wise unfeasible… install costs escalate every time you open and close a panel for an upgrade…

2) Selecting Dynon, Big G, or everyone else…

Bummer… Dynon AP not in Mooneyland yet….

 

3) It helps if you know your budget… holy cow a full refresh is expensive!

4) It helps to know how deep into the IFR world you want to go…

5) It helps if you know what you don’t want…

Bummer… G1000 updates have been tough and expensive…

6) For ideas… find an MSer that flys the way you do… and check out their panel… I  started watching DonK and StevenL’s panels a while back…

Bummer… it is hard to know which MSer to follow… without seeing their panel picks first…

7) This line of logic hasn’t made much progress for me…. It’s like sending another kid to school… 

PP thoughts only, not instrument installer…

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Panel dilemnas….

1) Upgrade piecemeal… one device at a time…

Bummer… nice idea, but cost wise unfeasible… install costs escalate every time you open and close a panel for an upgrade…

2) Selecting Dynon, Big G, or everyone else…

Bummer… Dynon AP not in Mooneyland yet….

 

3) It helps if you know your budget… holy cow a full refresh is expensive!

4) It helps to know how deep into the IFR world you want to go…

5) It helps if you know what you don’t want…

Bummer… G1000 updates have been tough and expensive…

6) For ideas… find an MSer that flys the way you do… and check out their panel… I  started watching DonK and StevenL’s panels a while back…

Bummer… it is hard to know which MSer to follow… without seeing their panel picks first…

7) This line of logic hasn’t made much progress for me…. It’s like sending another kid to school… 

PP thoughts only, not instrument installer…

Best regards,

-a-

Notwithstanding the tech bust of 2000 and the financial meltdown of 2007-2008 (both of which if you held on to what you had would have produced fabulous results as of today), the best time to do a panel upgrade is--NOW!  Had I not done my upgrade starting at the end of 2013, it would have cost me thousands more to do it today.  The value of the dollar has really gone down over those intervening years making everything cost a lot more, and with inflation rearing its ugly head once again things are going to cost even more in the next few years.  When I say everything, I mean everything; cars, airplanes, real estate, and yes, even panel upgrades.  Mark my words (as an older person who has seen it all).  If you pass on doing your upgrade now, you will be very sorry a few years from now.