Keep Your Speed Up

[Ricky_231]

43 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Let me just say I’m disappointed in my brethren, y’all are flying too slow, we should be asked to slow down!


Tom

meh

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, Ricky_231 said:

meh

meh indeed...

[MooneyMitch]

A bit off topic........ but I always enjoy when a controller says to another aircraft in my vicinity “you have a Mooney, same direction at 5 o’clock,  overtaking you”

We love to fly FAST! 

[Releew]

Although my bird has speed brakes I try never to use them if not necessary.  I believe they are a great addition when descending from altitude with  the MP at a higher than normal setting when making a decent. 

At a 2 mile final, I want a Manageable Balance Aircraft....meaning Trimmed and at Gear Extension Speed.  From 2 to 1 miles, gear extension and first position flaps.  less than a mile, full flaps if desired.  I don't think there is a magic number (distance from touchdown) it's all a personal preference.  I personally do not want to slow down AT ALL..... until needed. 

They sequence in how you setup to land is the most important, not the distance from landing.  The more experience you gain the tighter the sequence.  

Just my thoughts...

Rick

[Skates97]

5 minutes ago, Releew said:

Although my bird has speed brakes I try never to use them if not necessary.  I believe they are a great addition when descending from altitude with  the MP at a higher than normal setting when making a decent. 

At a 2 mile final, I want a Manageable Balance Aircraft....meaning Trimmed and at Gear Extension Speed.  From 2 to 1 miles, gear extension and first position flaps.  less than a mile, full flaps if desired.  I don't think there is a magic number (distance from touchdown) it's all a personal preference.  I personally do not want to slow down AT ALL..... until needed. 

They sequence in how you setup to land is the most important, not the distance from landing.  The more experience you gain the tighter the sequence.  

Just my thoughts...

Rick

Thanks, when flying the pattern, whether it is a regular pattern or entering on a base leg it's never been a concern for me. It's the long straight in which I have been trying to dial in some things. Based at KFUL for the past year a long straight in is fairly normal coming from the east. The airspace stretches out about 7 miles to the east of the airport and the typical spot to call up tower is near the water treatment plant which is about 9 miles to the east and almost always results in a "Make straight in runway 24" response from tower.

[Pete M]

In my e I'd pull the prop back to 1950 and mp just enough to keep from driving the prop...bout 15 or so. Gives you a nice descent rate. No such silliness in imc though.

[Bob_Belville]

I suppose most of the times I’ve had the keep speed up instruction I’m landing on a 8 or 10,000’ runway with an airliner sequenced behind me. If I come down the glide slope at ~130 kias to 200’ and chop power and level out there’s plenty of runway to slow to gear speed and touch down before midfield, no flaps. In all likelihood the tower will have what they need and allow me to slow sooner.

What they don’t need is someone setting up a nice stabilized gear down and full flaps 4 mile final flown at 75 kias with a line of 737s behind him doing twice that speed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Austintatious]

Story(s) time!

 

The other day I took my stepfather out flying... Coming back to home base tower said I had a Phenom at my 5 o-clock and he needed me to do a quick left 360 to give him room.  I complied.  Then he said the phenom was at my  4 o-clock and to give him another turn... I told him I could probably beat the Phenom in.  He said "Nah, just do another turn"  so I did and then called the Phenom in sight.   I was told to follow him in.

at about a 4 mile final the tower asked me to slow down.  haha... So I did... at 1 mile he told me I had a 30 knot overtake on the Phenom!

 

Ok, different story... There are some citation II's out there that have a gear speed (VLO) of 262 knots...  That is the only jet I have ever flown that I could cross the outer marker at 250 KIAS clean and be slowed to ref and fully configured on short final... Speed brakes and gear at OM... Flaps when below the limit for each notch.  Loads of fun.

[carusoam]

Keep your bearings in mind when allowing the prop to drive the engine...

This goes with pulling and pushing on the prop... putting the plane away or coming out of the hangar...

It’s the middle zone when the prop is neither pushing or pulling when the hammer effect is available...

So... when you keep your speed up, then need maximum braking... gently push the prop forwards, extend the speed brakes (both top and bottom)

the gentle part allows the prop to nicely go through the transition without hammering it through the small gap...

You know the gap when you pull and push on the prop... and get the clunk...

I don’t think anyone has ruined the thrust bearing in their Mooney around here...?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

So... when you keep your speed up, then need maximum braking... gently push the prop forwards, extend the speed brakes (both top and bottom)

Yes, low MP, high RPM and high ASI you do get load of drag from the flat prop windmilling and that helps a lot when it comes to get down quickly, bringing prop RPM very down is like feathering it that does not help to go down but at least it take all the load off the engine, having prop it in the middle range is like trying to descend quickly by flying at best glide speed on a wing

[0TreeLemur]

3 hours ago, Ibra said:

Yes, low MP, high RPM and high ASI you do get load of drag from the flat prop windmilling and that helps a lot when it comes to get down quickly, bringing prop RPM very down is like feathering it that does not help to go down but at least it take all the load off the engine, having prop it in the middle range is like trying to descend quickly by flying at best glide speed on a wing

I did this the other day in my C, and saw high EGT's.  I had low MP (gear warning going off), prop full rpm, mixture about 1" from full rich, in about 1000 fpm descent.   EGT's on all cyls. went up causing the EGT bars on the JPI900 to turn yellow.   Advanced mixture full rich and that cooled them off.   Density altitude 0.  I was surprised that this condition could cause high EGTs.  In another thread @Shadrach suggests that this is not a concern, just a peculiarity of the situation that won't harm anything.

 

[Ibra]

High EGTs should not be much of a concern as when Fuel Flow is low Mixture/EGT setting will not have much thermal impact on your CHTs, but the high RPM does (it generate mechanical friction, so heats your cylinders), in the other hand you get cooling from the high ASI speed decent, also I find it hard to know how to set cowl flaps on that high RPM decent but leaving it closed seems to work better in the M20J

Edited December 18, 2019 by Ibra

[larryb]

I get this most of the time if I have to do an approach to my home base. We are close to a major airport and when IFR spacing requires us to mix nicely with the jets. Yet, we still have to deal with our relatively short runway, so must be on speed.

I  maintain 150 kt until 5 miles from the airport. Gear up, on glideslope.  At 5 miles:

• Deploy speed brakes.
• Reduce to 15" MP.
• Wait for gear speed, 140 kt.
• Deploy gear. 
• Wait until 100 kt.
• Retract speed brakes.
• Deploy flaps.

     All of the above takes around 3 miles, so I'm configured for landing at 2 miles from the airport. Because of the speed brakes and the higher gear speed I can do this all on the glideslope. However, in my J I could not. Without the speed brakes I would have to level out for a bit to get down to gear speed, putting me above the glideslope. This scenario is one of the big advantages of having speed brakes.

Larry

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, Ibra said:

High EGTs should not be much of a concern as when Fuel Flow is low Mixture/EGT setting will not have much thermal impact on your CHTs, but the high RPM does (it generate mechanical friction, so heats your cylinders), in the other hand you get cooling from the high ASI speed decent, also I find it hard to know how to set cowl flaps on that high RPM decent but leaving it closed seems to work better in the M20J

Uh no. Engine friction is metal to oil (if otherwise the engine’s remaining life span can be measured in minutes). 

[Ibra]

Yes, with no engine oil it will be a quick hot decent

Which one is driving cylinder CHT: high EGT/FF of the burning air-fuel mix heating up oil/engine? or high metal/fluid/metal friction from propeller RPM heating up oil/engine? it is easy to know the exact answer on few scenarios (e.g. no FF, zero rpm...) or when flying fixed pitch

 

[HXG]

It depends on the situation.

Best/ Max forward speed KIAS in Bravo

VFR: I won’t verbalize a commitment  to more than 150  to FAF,  at FAF (by 5NM final) speed brakes to 140 then Gear Down,  slow (+- speed brakes) to 110  by 2NM  final then flaps &  slow to land normally.  

IMC to near minimums: 140 slowing to 120 at GS intercept, Gear Down then 110 kias & 1st notch flaps, stabilized and configured by FAF at 110 to 2NM final then slow. 

 

[MooneyMitch]

As I stated previously, the "keep your speed up" is a huge variable for me.  For myself, that phrase gives me lots to consider in my decision of what speed I choose, the configuration of the aircraft and when I choose to make those adjustments. 

Unless someone brought it up already and I missed it, one thing I also consider is the stability of the air [turbulence, and how much]..........and therefore, my airplanes maneuvering speed ! 

Again, for myself, situational awareness is imperative............. lots to consider with this phrase "keep your speed up". 

[larryb]

I find it helpful to have a known and detailed procedure for "keep your speed up."  After having that request and not knowing exactly what the plane would do, I went out on a clear day and did some testing to determine it. I now know that it takes me 3 miles to slow from 150 to 100 on the GS.  I know the sequence of tasks to perform to make it happen. I don't want to be making it up on the fly and wind up too high and fast at the end.

[MooneyMitch]

43 minutes ago, larryb said:

I find it helpful to have a known and detailed procedure for "keep your speed up."  After having that request and not knowing exactly what the plane would do, I went out on a clear day and did some testing to determine it. I now know that it takes me 3 miles to slow from 150 to 100 on the GS.  I know the sequence of tasks to perform to make it happen. I don't want to be making it up on the fly and wind up too high and fast at the end.

Completely agree......it’s so good to know your airplane and your capabilities.  

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Ibra said:

Yes, with no engine oil it will be a quick hot decent

Which one is driving cylinder CHT: high EGT/FF of the burning air-fuel mix heating up oil/engine? or high metal/fluid/metal friction from propeller RPM heating up oil/engine? it is easy to know the exact answer on few scenarios (e.g. no FF, zero rpm...) or when flying fixed pitch

 

 How hot do you think you could get the oil without combustion of any sort? Hypothetically imagine you had an external drive turning a non running aero engine. All other things being equal, do you think the oil would reach normal operating temperature off friction alone?

It’s cold in my neck of the woods these days but it’s my guess that if I climb to 10,000 feet and pull the mixture and the mags there would be nothing that I could do in a power off discent to cause oil temps to increase.

[Ibra]

28 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It’s cold in my neck of the woods these days but it’s my guess that if I climb to 10,000 feet and pull the mixture and the mags there would be nothing that I could do in a power off discent to cause oil temps to increase

Yes, zero FF is a trivial scenario but not as much as it would seem: if you keep prop at 2700rpm, yes, if you take more the engine will not walk away alive from it even with low oil temps (in the sensor, it does not mean the cylinders are not screaming)

Edited December 18, 2019 by Ibra

[bradp]

150 till 5, 140 till 4, 132 (Gear speed) by 3 will allow me to have a decelerating stable approach prior to 500 Agl.  That will work well in the mix for RJs etc. 
 

I’d hear a lot of mentioning of speed brakes. What happened to the lowly forward slip.  Best tool I have should I want to get down in a hurry... side of the fuselage makes a good bit of drag. 

[MooneyMitch]

There are all kinds of techniques to slow the Mooney , and get down fast and safely......agree including a slip!