apenney Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just going thru old log entries and hadn’t noticed this until now. It’s dated 2001 but I was surprised to see it. Why would the owner feel the need to comment in the log? Has anyone else done this or seen anything similar? I initially laughed when I saw it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 Pretty funny, regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 What does the following log entry say, it should be the one that states it’s airworthy.Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: What does the following log entry say, it should be the one that states it’s airworthy. maybe just a note from an A&P that they verified IFR certification has lapsed, but I'm pretty sure there's no requirement to note that a subsequently addressed issue was one of the discrepancies given at annual. One of the questions that came up on the most recent Mike Busch webinar was how to address the discrepancy list, and the answer was that they are addressed like any other repair--no additional language is required (or authorized). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 maybe just a note from an A&P that they verified IFR certification has lapsed, but I'm pretty sure there's no requirement to note that a subsequently addressed issue was one of the discrepancies given at annual. One of the questions that came up on the most recent Mike Busch webinar was how to address the discrepancy list, and the answer was that they are addressed like any other repair--no additional language is required (or authorized). But they still have to log the fact that is now airworthy? And document the repair.Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 13 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: What does the following log entry say, it should be the one that states it’s airworthy. Tom 2 days later, there was a transponder/alt/static check and the day after that an A&P IA put in a "returned to service" entry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 I’m assuming a different IA? I wouldn’t let that guy near my plane again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said: I’m assuming a different IA? I wouldn’t let that guy near my plane again. Never ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 27, 2019 Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 25 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: But they still have to log the fact that is now airworthy? And document the repair. Tom Nope. When the IA signs the "annual was completed with discrepancies," the annual is completed. The discrepancies do NOT have to be addressed by an IA. They can be "repaired" by an A&P, who is NEVER authorized to declare the aircraft is airworthy/unairworthy. The onus is on the owner to ensure that those items are addressed, but there is no follow up documentation that needs to occur, nor do the contents of the discrepancy list have to be recorded in the logs in any way by regulation. OK, sure, it would be a good idea for the A&P to start with a log entry that says "the owner provided a discrepancy list and the following items were addressed" but that is not required. Likewise, it's sort of implied that you need to have some kind of repair recorded in the log right after the ferry flight to show that you addressed the discrepancy list in some way, but it's not actually spelled out as a requirement. Hell, if it was a preventative maintenance task on the discrepancy list, you could record the entry as an owner and never have an A&P touch the plane until the next annual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted March 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2019 22 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said: I’m assuming a different IA? I wouldn’t let that guy near my plane again. Yeah different one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragedracer1977 Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Since when does an expired IFR cert make a plane unairworthy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydvrboy Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Note to self... don’t give IA logbooks that they could write in. They can print a sticker that may or may not find it’s way into the logbook. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 That entry doesn't even say it was an annual or a 100-hour inspection, but was apparently the safety statement entry for a ferry permit. Those statements generally just say that the ADs are current or which ones aren't, and that the aircraft is safe to fly for the permit flight. There's no AD status statement, which I think is unusual. Was the previous entry an annual or inspection entry? Was it near its annual inspection date? Was the ferry permit just because the guy "grounded" it for the IFR cert? So many questions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted March 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 55 minutes ago, EricJ said: That entry doesn't even say it was an annual or a 100-hour inspection, but was apparently the safety statement entry for a ferry permit. Those statements generally just say that the ADs are current or which ones aren't, and that the aircraft is safe to fly for the permit flight. There's no AD status statement, which I think is unusual. Was the previous entry an annual or inspection entry? Was it near its annual inspection date? Was the ferry permit just because the guy "grounded" it for the IFR cert? So many questions... It was actually the 2nd page of the annual inspection entry and was titled as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, apenney said: It was actually the 2nd page of the annual inspection entry and was titled as such. Even worse! It deviates from the FAR language that is supposed to be the conclusion of the annual inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted March 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 What do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 I would never write what the IA wrote in any log. That IA was a goof! Condition list to the owner, with out my signature in the logs! -Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 2001 was a long time ago... Since then... Mechanics and pilots and owners have found working together as a team, to be more effective than having a handwritten argument in a forever-document... to be shared on the internet nearly decades later... Looks like the owner wrote a personal note to himself... kind of a memory aid. Who else was going to read it and get any value out of that note? When the transponder needs a check doesn’t it get done as part of the annual..? Looks like the owner got surprised by the additional and costly step... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted March 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, MB65E said: I would never write what the IA wrote in any log. That IA was a goof! Condition list to the owner, with out my signature in the logs! -Matt I wonder if something personal was going on back in 2001. The good news (I think) is that the annual the year prior to this one was with Dugosh and the subsequent 5 years years when the plane was in California, annuals were at Top Gun and Lasar...then Wilmar when the plane relocated to the midwest. Currently in my first annual (and my first plane ownership year) as the current owner so this is a new experience for me. Decided to do it at my home base just outside of MIlwaukee. Though not a MSC, they take care of several Mooneys in the area and I wanted to develop a relationship with a facility I can depend on locally for things that might come up between annuals. May go to Wilmar for an annual when its time for my tank reseal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Getting to know your mechanic always helps... This way anything that is going to be documented in the log that is unusual... you can be aware of long before the paperwork gets done... First annuals have a lot of ADs to be gone through... do you have a history book of the plane’s personal ADs? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted March 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Yes, there is an AD compliance record as well as a narrative and list that the previous owner (who used to be on Mooneyspace) also compiled with explanations to make it easier to follow for a new owner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, apenney said: Yes, there is an AD compliance record as well as a narrative and list that the previous owner (who used to be on Mooneyspace) also compiled with explanations to make it easier to follow for a new owner. Just watch out, my understanding is that those separate AD compliance records are for information only. The actual AD compliance still needs to be recorded in the logbooks when appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 4 hours ago, jaylw314 said: Just watch out, my understanding is that those separate AD compliance records are for information only. The actual AD compliance still needs to be recorded in the logbooks when appropriate. The list only needs to be kept and to be signed by the IA. There is no requirement or specification for "a logbook," you are free to keep the required records on used bar napkins and scraps of paper until the work is done again or the time requirement expires, then throw them away. This is legal. But expect a hit on price if you sell the plane with only 12 months' maintenance history and the AD log. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted March 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Thanks for the insights. The AD list was signed off by the last IA, ADs are referenced in log entries where addressed, and I have the complete logs. Fortunately I also have open communication lines with the two previous owners - when questions have come up, they have been gracious with their time. In fact, one of them lives in my state and I flew out and met him last year! I’m grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Hank said: The list only needs to be kept and to be signed by the IA. There is no requirement or specification for "a logbook," you are free to keep the required records on used bar napkins and scraps of paper until the work is done again or the time requirement expires, then throw them away. This is legal. But expect a hit on price if you sell the plane with only 12 months' maintenance history and the AD log. My understanding is that the log entries are only required to be kept for 12 months (not a good idea, admittedly), but any record of AD compliance must be kept indefinitely. I'm unsure whether that means an AD log signed by an IA would be sufficient, or whether the original signed log entry that described the work done complying with that AD needs to be kept. I'm assuming the latter? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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