JPI 900 Installation Costs for 76 M20F

[jerrodmonaghan]

Curious what you guys have experienced or would consider a fair cost to install a JPI900.

 

How much time would you anticipate it being in the shop?

 

 

Thanks

 

 

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[Aerodon]

Jerry,

I would say 40 hours plus or minus 10.  Why such a big range you might ask.  If you are really organized, have the new hoses and other parts on hand, don't need to do any panel cutting and do it at annual when everything is open, its very different to taking it in just for an EDM900 upgrade.  And panel creep....

 

Aerodon

 

[Marauder]

Don is correct. Around 40 hours. If it is a virgin install (ex. not upgrading from an 830) there will be more time spent getting everything installed. My JPI 900 install was cheaper than the 830 since the 900 re-used some of the existing probes. Also, if you are attaching other things into the system, it will drive up the hours. In my case, I wanted both fuel pressure and flow to be displayed on my JPI 900 and the EI FP-5L. That required additional plumbing.

[carusoam]

Jerrod,

Don’t forget the decision regarding Ceis fuel level sensors in the planning stage...

The JPI needs to be set-up at the factory for the frequency based sensors... for best accuracy...

This greatly reduces the hazard of running out of fuel compared to the original aged equipment... 

Best regards,

-a-

[eman1200]

....

You use vcalc enough to justify a spot on the default nav page?

[Aerodon]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

The JPI needs to be set-up at the factory for the frequency based sensors... for best accuracy...

This greatly reduces the hazard of running out of fuel compared to the original aged equipment... 

 

No, you are perpetuating a myth, I've researched this and:

1) The Cies frequency based transducers have 2000 steps, and will require a $3-400 'upgrade' from JPI.  That is 0.025G increments in the average 50G tank.

2) The resistive or voltage Cies transducers have 500 steps, or 0.1G increments.  Cies charge an extra $100 per pair, so this is the more economical way to go.

Either way, accuracy is the same.

I used the voltage output version, straight into a standard EDM, without the JPI 'black box' Voltage converter.

I did not use the Cies connector option (too bulky).

I ran 3 new wires to each side (power, ground, signal).  Power from the original FQ CB.  You can ground the transducers at the tank, but I grounded at the JPI.

Aerodon

[Marauder]

You use vcalc enough to justify a spot on the default nav page?

You betcha! It’s a great way to keep track of required descent points either IFR or VFR.


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[carusoam]

Semi-perpetuating the myth..., Don...

The key point was deciding what the OP wants before ordering the JPI unit...like ordering the Cies gauges... 

 

Now... back to the point you have researched... that is quite interesting... (seems new to me, or maybe I forgot...)

• Frequency vs. Voltage...
• Frequency requires a JPI black box 
• 2k vs. 500 steps...
• both give .1 gallon accuracy in the readings...
• The JPI only displays .1 gallon increments... (?)
• The end user of a 100 gallon fuel system is happy with being within 1 gallon of expectations...

There are a few things that the Ceis gauges offer over the standard Mooney floats... including smoothed numbers while bouncing around in turbulence...

Let’s say an MSer had and extra 0.4 amu... Is there anything useable he would get from the frequency technology that is not available from the voltage version?

Thanks again for pointing me/us in the right direction regarding JPI hardware and the other panel related things you do... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Semi-perpetuating the myth..., Don...

The key point was deciding what the OP wants before ordering the JPI unit...like ordering the Cies gauges... 

 

Now... back to the point you have researched... that is quite interesting... (seems new to me, or maybe I forgot...)

• Frequency vs. Voltage...
• Frequency requires a JPI black box 
• 2k vs. 500 steps...
• both give .1 gallon accuracy in the readings...
• The JPI only displays .1 gallon increments... (?)
• The end user of a 100 gallon fuel system is happy with being within 1 gallon of expectations...

There are a few things that the Ceis gauges offer over the standard Mooney floats... including smoothed numbers while bouncing around in turbulence...

Let’s say an MSer had and extra 0.4 amu... Is there anything useable he would get from the frequency technology that is not available from the voltage version?

Thanks again for pointing me/us in the right direction regarding JPI hardware and the other panel related things you do... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

I went frequency mode with the CiES. The “black box” is actually just a firmware upgrade and a wiring harness (that is what you are paying $375 for the option).Frequency mode is less suspect to interference but in our planes it probably doesn’t matter.

As for grounding, when I was troubleshooting my installation, grounding was a concern. These units should be grounded through the JPI and not locally. What that means is the outside sender’s (if present) grounds need to be connected to the inner sender’s grounds and then sent up to the JPI. I also used the JPI wiring provided. It was shielded and also shielded wires to the outboard.

And for the 100 gallon tank people. The location of the outer senders and the dihedral shape of the wing will force the unit to show full fuel until the fuel level can activate the outer senders.

For electrical connections, I used sealed connectors designed to be in wet or fuel/oil environments.

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Edited March 1, 2019 by Marauder

[fuellevel]

The JPI pricing has changed - I have heard $100 to convert    and all new JPI appear to have frequency as a software option.  Please check with JPI to be sure but this appears to be the case lately.   So the economics have changed slightly.

So the no moving parts is interesting marketing from Edward Simmonds  (Simmonds Electroprecision and the ESNA lock nut company ES is Edward Simmonds the NA is North America)  when the Capacitive probe came around  in 1948 for aircraft - Kind of like "it takes a licking but keeps on ticking" though we have long transitioned from Timexs  

Fuel is in motion in the tank - the capacitive while it doesn't move is subject to a variety of wetted and unwanted surfaces to maintain a steady output  in 1970 this was accomplished with discrete electronics  - the Signal Conditioner and this was far simpler than the Selsyn system adopted for fuel level measurement for commercial aircraft float fuel systems .   In modern sense for this same function everybody uses some form of micro-controller (interesting history, the Selsyn was take from the aiming system for Naval Gunnery).    The biggest issue in capacitive is adjusting for the dielectric - not so bad with Jet A but more difficult with avgas and the fact that you have wires in the tank of the aircraft.   Yes it doesn't move but yes it is connected to the aircraft electrical system - this is a hold up and bad ju ju with certification lately - for instance Garmin in their EIS TXI only allowed resistive senders  - and  because we are isolated,  we have separate FAA approval for interface with that system and Garmins blessing .  

This interestingly,  has not been a direct safety issue - no accidents in GA despite some spectacular lightning event incidents that traveled through the fuel quantity system.   As far as the FAA was concerned  there were suspicions in the TWA 800 accident, so new capacitive systems have various intrinsic barriers employed to keep lightning or arcs out of the tank  and this adds precipitously to cost.   Strangely they applied this to resistive senders and these in newer aircraft had to add resistors in series or magnetic coupling in the case of Cirrus  - which made a bad system untenable.    

If you take a close look at the late and very un-lamented Cessna Pennycap - this system required twice as many probes as you can't get the probe close to the wing  surface due to lightning attachment  this was true even in 1969.    We are now replacing Cessna 400 twin pennycap systems at an astonishing,  to me, rate. 

We don't have those wiring or lightning issues  - so true to the original mission can we make a better fuel sender accuracy and reliability, make it cheaper than modern capacitive- less probes more accuracy more total fuel measurement and quadruple the reliability.   So the proof is in the pudding and moving parts in and of themselves has no impact on the measurement quality or accuracy as we have demonstrated. 

I  am fascinated that Edward Simmonds marketing - No Moving Parts is still an active part of the aviation lexicon  - I only wish I had 1/4 of that skill 

[Pilotja5]

We just had the JPI 900 installed in our plane!  IT is a great choice.  It took 40 hours of labor.  I believe the total out the door is somewhere around 8k including the unit.  It is hard to tell because we did our ADSB transponder at the same time.  The only issue we are battling at the moment, is that the total gallons is off but JPI is working with us to get that corrected.  It is a calibration piece.  For a great engine monitor that is TSO'd, it didn't break the bank.  Stark Avionics in Columbus, GA did it and is a very good group to work with!

[bradp]

I'm still confused - better to do the frequency or voltage mode for new installs with CiES sender?

[Marauder]

I'm still confused - better to do the frequency or voltage mode for new installs with CiES sender?

Frequency


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[hypertech]

Since the thread has drifted to which fuel senders on the JPI.....

I've had several shops tell me that the CiES installation in some Mooney's is an excruciating experience particularly in a long body and straight up advise me not to do it.  In one instance they said they had an Ovation that the install went so sideways they gave up and put the original senders back in.  I don't really know why but I've heard this several times from different shops.  Some say the float arms have to be bent in a tricky way or something.

I was going to upgrade to the CiES when I got my tanks resealed but since so many have told me its more trouble than ti is worth, the plan is just to have the senders overhauled and the calibration redone while the tank work is being done.

So, maybe see what your shop thinks about the senders and what experience they have installing them before deciding which way to have the JPI set up.

[Jeev]

On 2/28/2019 at 10:57 AM, jerrodmonaghan said:

 

Curious what you guys have experienced or would consider a fair cost to install a JPI900.

 

How much time would you anticipate it being in the shop?

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I am a little late to this thread but for a EDM900 we charge 35-45hrs plus a few hundred for sending off the fuel and oil hoses to get the transducers fitted.  The variance depends on if we are doing CIES senders and how much we have to move or block in the panel.  Both I and JPI recommend CIES senders they make a huge difference in accuracy especially when your are seeing the exact fuel level on the EDM 900.

[Jeev]

22 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I am incredibly tempted by @Jeev‘s current EDM900 pricing.  If I didn’t have my hands so full right now getting my house and our lives back together in the aftermath of Hurricane Michael here in Panama City, Florida, I would buy one right now.  I want to do the installation myself and just don’t have time.  Next year or the year after should work out about right. 

Jim

That is a lot to deal with!!! No worries my low pricing is constant and JPI offers rebates at least twice a year, just shoot me a line when you are ready.  This round is of rebates is real good with $500 off the 900. 

[gsxrpilot]

50 minutes ago, hypertech said:

Since the thread has drifted to which fuel senders on the JPI.....

I've had several shops tell me that the CiES installation in some Mooney's is an excruciating experience particularly in a long body and straight up advise me not to do it.  In one instance they said they had an Ovation that the install went so sideways they gave up and put the original senders back in.  I don't really know why but I've heard this several times from different shops.  Some say the float arms have to be bent in a tricky way or something.

I was going to upgrade to the CiES when I got my tanks resealed but since so many have told me its more trouble than ti is worth, the plan is just to have the senders overhauled and the calibration redone while the tank work is being done.

So, maybe see what your shop thinks about the senders and what experience they have installing them before deciding which way to have the JPI set up.

That's sad you got such bad advice. The CiES senders are just much better quality and much more accurate than the stock senders. The install is very straight forward and you'd think any shop could do it. But one does have to follow instructions. Also the CiES senders need to be matched to the JPI. Both ends have to be using Frequency or Voltage for the signaling. Also, easy to do at ordering.

I'd have fired the shop.

[Marauder]

35 minutes ago, Jeev said:

I am a little late to this thread but for a EDM900 we charge 35-45hrs plus a few hundred for sending off the fuel and oil hoses to get the transducers fitted.  The variance depends on if we are doing CIES senders and how much we have to move or block in the panel.  Both I and JPI recommend CIES senders they make a huge difference in accuracy especially when your are seeing the exact fuel level on the EDM 900.

Have you installed any new JPI 900s recently (within the last 2 months)? I sent mine back earlier this year for another failure of the display and they replaced it with a new display that does not have the anti-glare coating on it. Wonder if all the new ones are coming out this way. And more importantly if there is an anti-glare add-on that can be placed on the display. you can see how shiny it is in this video as compared to the Aspen, L-3 ESI-500 and the center stack stuff.

 

[ArtVandelay]

You can buy anti glare screen savers, iPads are more than big enough and cut it to size. Or try to find something close, Aera 660 is probably pretty close in dimensions IIRC.


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

22 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Have you installed any new JPI 900s recently (within the last 2 months)? I sent mine back earlier this year for another failure of the display and they replaced it with a new display that does not have the anti-glare coating on it. Wonder if all the new ones are coming out this way. And more importantly if there is an anti-glare add-on that can be placed on the display. you can see how shiny it is in this video as compared to the Aspen, L-3 ESI-500 and the center stack stuff.

You should be able to use an anti-glare screen cover made for a phone or iPad. Just trim it down to fit the JPI.

[Marauder]

11 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You should be able to use an anti-glare screen cover made for a phone or iPad. Just trim it down to fit the JPI.

I'm curious if all the new JPI 900s will be coming out with this new display. Definitely needs an anti-glare covering on it. The old display had some sort of coating on it.

[Niko182]

29 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I'm curious if all the new JPI 900s will be coming out with this new display. Definitely needs an anti-glare covering on it. The old display had some sort of coating on it.

I got a new one last month. Ive never had issues with glare so far.

[Marauder]

17 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I got a new one last month. Ive never had issues with glare so far.

Is it glossy looking? I will post a before and after from my iPhone.

[Marauder]

Here is what I am seeing. Old and new displays.






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[Jeev]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

Have you installed any new JPI 900s recently (within the last 2 months)? I sent mine back earlier this year for another failure of the display and they replaced it with a new display that does not have the anti-glare coating on it. Wonder if all the new ones are coming out this way. And more importantly if there is an anti-glare add-on that can be placed on the display. you can see how shiny it is in this video as compared to the Aspen, L-3 ESI-500 and the center stack stuff.

 

Yea we have done three in the last month.... hmm I haven't noticed a difference in the last 6 months !!!how old was your original unit?