Plane Cost Calculator

[40-0Flight]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

OMG!! I read the first couple of posts last night, and thought it  ight be safe to check in now. Is this thread full of numbers? If so, I don't want to read it . . .

Fixed costs:

• Annual
• Hangar / tie down
• Flight reviews
• Pitot static tests
• GPS data (for your particular instrument)

Operating Costs

• Fuel
• Oil
• Oil changes
• Batteries
• Tires
• Overnight fees away from home
• Spark plug changes
• Magneto overhauls
• Engine overhaul

Variable Expenses

• Repairs for things that break
• Repairs formthungs that wear out
• Instrument replacement / upgrades
• Interior work
• Paint
• "Dressing up" the plane
• Everything else . . . .

Fixed Expenses will vary by your location; Operating Expenses will vary by aircraft type & model, how you fly and how often; Variable Expenses are controlled directly by the desires of the Owner. 

If you ever add them up, please don't post them where I will accidentally see the answers . . . . .

Thanks good post... exactly the type of content I'm looking for... I'm not so worried about the numbers, I'm just trying to lock down the categories.   A thousand things can affect the numbers an individual might assign to each of these.

 

Good note on Magnetos  I missed that one.   Are those overhauled on an hourly basis, or just swap them out when something goes wrong or looks bad at annual? 

Edited February 28, 2019 by 40-0Flight
extra question

[bob865]

13 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I'm pretty sure if you keep throwing money at the problem... the money will go away

The poblem never goes away.  It just moves. 

[40-0Flight]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I know we had this discussion a while back. Don Kaye chimed in that his Bravo annual costs were around 30 AMU. I think it is a healthy read for the owner wannabes that owning an airplane is a financial commitment. It is easy to get enamored with ownership, not so much when you are staring at a 6 AMU annual inspection bill. Those who don't look at the costs obviously have the financial means not to do so. It is a disservice to a potential owner to give the impression that owning a plane doesn't come with many financial strings. Looking back at all those threads where new owners were coping at unexpected costs that should have been expected, should be the reality check. 

Thank you @Marauder   You touched on the core point to my original post.  Purchasing a plane is a large financial commitment. 

100% agree, IF you have the finances to just throw money at it until it goes away, or just fly now and the money will sort itself out.  Then YES, that is exactly how I would encourage anyone to approach it.  

BUT:  Few have that luxury... even if they do, over buy on the plane and I'm pretty sure there is a plane out there capable of drying up Anyone's disposable income! 

Be it a piece of land, a new house, or a new wife.  You don't get into a large commitment if you don't have SOME idea what you're getting into.  My goal is to just build a tool for those people to see the picture a little clearer as it pertains to their situation.   

It is too easy for an outsider like myself, who hasn't been flying and adjusting to the costs for 35+ years to just look at a $65k M20C and go.. Yeah.. i can make that payment... My Doctor buddy said fuel is "cheap" for these... I got this!   

 

After the enjoyable experience of reading through many of these mostly humorous posts.. I would say NO, this tool is not for the current owner, the married, or the faint of heart.  But for the New potential owner, wanting to join the General Aviation community... Maybe it will help.. Maybe it will allow more people to join GA successfully with finances remaining to enjoy it.  Be it a 1965 Cessna 152, or a 1986 M20K full of glass.

 

I appreciate everyone's input for sure!

[Eraaen]

On a semi serious note. 20'ish years ago when I first started contemplating.  I also "attempted" to build a spread sheet.  More for, as you said, the Categories I couldn't think of.  I'm to lazy to look now, it's to late for me.  But, AOPA did have a fairly substantial page on how to get started.  Pre buy inspections.  Types of ownership.  Cost analyzer spread sheet.  Maint estimates etc.  Not sure if it is still there.  If it is, I'm not sure if it is a Member's only page.  A good source of info nonetheless.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Eraaen

[Skates97]

31 minutes ago, bob865 said:

The poblem never goes away.  It just moves. 

But if you throw enough money at it there is the possibility of weighing it down so that it can't move...

[40-0Flight]

5 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Love the way everyone is laughing and liking this post but the OP has NO clue what im talking about. 

 

I just assumed it was the standard fear of the "Boss" most here have displayed.   

[jaylw314]

3 minutes ago, 40-0Flight said:

I just assumed it was the standard fear of the "Boss" most here have displayed.   

You'll need to go search for @Hyett6420's wedding photos

I started in a similar place with you, maybe a little younger in my late 30's finally deciding to get started flying.  I didn't have any relatives or kids that flew, so maybe even less indirect knowledge, but I just took the plunge at a point where I knew I at least had the time.  Don't forget that TIME is also the other factor in owning a plane, not just money.  You need to be confident you have the time to do all the training for the mission you want, as well as the time to include all the things related to flying in your life.  If you don't have time to spend an afternoon every 3 months changing the oil because you don't want (or don't want to have) to spend $200-300 at the shop, then that will add to the stress when you could simply be renting or doing a part ownership.

[40-0Flight]

24 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

You'll need to go search for @Hyett6420's wedding photos

I started in a similar place with you, maybe a little younger in my late 30's finally deciding to get started flying.  I didn't have any relatives or kids that flew, so maybe even less indirect knowledge, but I just took the plunge at a point where I knew I at least had the time.  Don't forget that TIME is also the other factor in owning a plane, not just money.  You need to be confident you have the time to do all the training for the mission you want, as well as the time to include all the things related to flying in your life.  If you don't have time to spend an afternoon every 3 months changing the oil because you don't want (or don't want to have) to spend $200-300 at the shop, then that will add to the stress when you could simply be renting or doing a part ownership.

I call this the Hobby pyramid.   You need 3 things to enjoy a hobby.  Time, Money, and Space. 

 I have had 2 (or less) of these 3 legs my entire life, so I understand.   I'm starting this journey now instead of 10 years ago like I wanted, because enough things have finally come together in life that I will get to claim all 3 legs.   I'm excited.   But I still have to wait 19 months.. so in the mean time I plan.    I have literally done the entire Kings PPL ground training twice, could probably pass the ground FAA written on a moments notice.  Have built 2 flight simulators, and have 400+ hours on these FTDs......   I feel that is as far as I can go at this point.  Never wanted to wait a Decade to start.. but hey, my son is starting his flight carrier later this year, so now I get to enjoy the journey with him... So that is a hidden blessing.

 

Now I have to go find these photos. lol

Edited February 28, 2019 by 40-0Flight

[Air pirate]

A wise man  once told me  "If you have to ask the cost, you can't afford it"    I'm in a similar position, I want to buy a Mooney, I looked at a few but chicken out when I think about the cost of ownership,, I'd like a 25 year super model girlfriend too, but that would be astronomical in cost, ( wife said get the plane it will be cheaper whatever it is).  I'm lucky to have froneds with some cool planes that me fly them and renting if I need too. At some point I will pull the trigger on a M20C.  Best of luck with your training.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, 40-0Flight said:

Good note on Magnetos  I missed that one.   Are those overhauled on an hourly basis, or just swap them out when something goes wrong or looks bad at annual? 

I'm not trying to be snarky, but Yes. They need at least an IRAN every 500-1000 hours depending on brand; some of these will become either an Overhaul or Replacement, depending on what's happening inside. Sometimes Replacement comes early, away from home, like it did for me almost two years ago.

[40-0Flight]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

I'm not trying to be snarky, but Yes. They need at least an IRAN every 500-1000 hours depending on brand; some of these will become either an Overhaul or Replacement, depending on what's happening inside. Sometimes Replacement comes early, away from home, like it did for me almost two years ago.

Not snarky at all.. I don't know these things so thanks.  I have a pretty good mechanical back ground.. but growing up on the farm, you fix it when its broke.  The idea of maintenance schedules is not the world I come from.

[jaylw314]

10 minutes ago, 40-0Flight said:

Not snarky at all.. I don't know these things so thanks.  I have a pretty good mechanical back ground.. but growing up on the farm, you fix it when its broke.  The idea of maintenance schedules is not the world I come from.

Ooh, that's a big can of worms.  There is a fair amount of controversy as to whether to do maintenance on a schedule or maintenance on condition (when it breaks).  Suffice it to say, that there are few items that are critical for safe flight and impending failures cannot be easily detected, and the magneto is one of them.  Most expect they will require at LEAST removal and IRAN (inspect and repair as needed), while some say just overhaul or replace the damn thing.  New magneto is about $1500.  Overhauled mag is about $1000.  IRAN can be as little as $250 (but could end up paying for a new mag anyway plus the cost of the inspection of the old mag).   Guys, correct me if those numbers are off

Edit:  Oooh, I should point out those are #'s for the individual Slick mags in an IO-360.  Those numbers may be way off for dual mags or pressurized mags.

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Ooh, that's a big can of worms.  There is a fair amount of controversy as to whether to do maintenance on a schedule or maintenance on condition (when it breaks).  Suffice it to say, that there are few items that are critical for safe flight and impending failures cannot be easily detected, and the magneto is one of them.  Most expect they will require at LEAST removal and IRAN (inspect and repair as needed), while some say just overhaul or replace the damn thing.  New magneto is about $1500.  Overhauled mag is about $1000.  IRAN can be as little as $250 (but could end up paying for a new mag anyway plus the cost of the inspection of the old mag).   Guys, correct me if those numbers are off

Edit:  Oooh, I should point out those are #'s for the individual Slick mags in an IO-360.  Those numbers may be way off for dual mags or pressurized mags.

Your numbers are probably pretty good for the actual magneto. But you'll need to include labor to remove and reinstall it, some shipping back and forth, and a profit margin for the A&P who does it. Then if you're away from home, add some more . . ..  BTDT. Getting the left mag off of my C myself was a huge chore, and I helped the friendly A&P remove the battery and box to remount it. There are four bolts through the firewall for the battery box--two have nuts above the rudder pedals [but under the carpet], the other two have nuts on the engine-side of the firewall. Yes, it's a 2-person job and I've now worked both sides. Took three trips to the magneto shop to get it running right longer than a couple of hours.

[jaylw314]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

Your numbers are probably pretty good for the actual magneto. But you'll need to include labor to remove and reinstall it, some shipping back and forth, and a profit margin for the A&P who does it. Then if you're away from home, add some more . . ..  BTDT. Getting the left mag off of my C myself was a huge chore, and I helped the friendly A&P remove the battery and box to remount it. There are four bolts through the firewall for the battery box--two have nuts above the rudder pedals [but under the carpet], the other two have nuts on the engine-side of the firewall. Yes, it's a 2-person job and I've now worked both sides. Took three trips to the magneto shop to get it running right longer than a couple of hours.

So you're saying they're close if I'm wearing rose-colored glasses? 

It must be easier to get them on and off with an IO-360-A3B6 on my J, my shop only charged me about $250 to redo the internal timing, no other repairs needed.

[Skates97]

59 minutes ago, 40-0Flight said:

Never wanted to wait a Decade to start.. but hey, my son is starting his flight carrier later this year, so now I get to enjoy the journey with him... So that is a hidden blessing.

 

Now I have to go find these photos. lol

I had about a 30 minute drive home from the airport after each flight during my PPL. The first thing I did  when I got in the car was call my dad to talk about the flight on the drive home. It was great to share that experience with him, and I got to hear a lot more stories of his Air Force flying days that I had never heard before. It was truly a blessing.

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, 40-0Flight said:

Not snarky at all.. I don't know these things so thanks.  I have a pretty good mechanical back ground.. but growing up on the farm, you fix it when its broke.  The idea of maintenance schedules is not the world I come from.

That's the issue. There are items that have true scheduled maintenance required times (ADs), others that should be done on a frequency (Hank's mags). Both are being done to prevent the "crap my tractor stopped running" in the back 40 scenario. Hank's mags giving out over the Blue Ridge Mountains would be more than pulling over to the next furrow and fixing it. And then for those of us who are less risk takers, we do preventative maintenance. All of this adds costs.

[40-0Flight]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

That's the issue. There are items that have true scheduled maintenance required times (ADs), others that should be done on a frequency (Hank's mags). Both are being done to prevent the "crap my tractor stopped running" in the back 40 scenario. Hank's mags giving out over the Blue Ridge Mountains would be more than pulling over to the next furrow and fixing it. And then for those of us who are less risk takers, we do preventative maintenance. All of this adds costs.

Personally, I have rarely saved a dollar in maintenance that didn't costed me two down the road.   But I get it.. If I'm not "required" to do the maintenance, I'm still going to weight out my options.

[bonal]

If you want to make a spreadsheet because it's something you enjoy doing that's one thing but trying to make an accurate tool for calculating what it costs to own an airplane I think is futile.  Yes you can factor fixed costs like insurance storage fuel and such but one annual can blow all the data out the window. Example, my first annual ended up being more than 50% the purchase price. Thankfully there was nothing that could not be repaired but a lot of things that sadly were not addressed by the previous owner. Totally my fault as I did not do a pre buy inspection. Another example is a C model that was probably one of the nicest and well maintained example in the fleet and shortly after it was purchased suffered a gear colaps that totaled the airplane.

I never considered the costs It was something I wanted to do so dove right in.  I purchased an older Cessna 150 before my first lesson and flew it for a few years before we bought our Mooney. The 150 was not only a great plane to learn how to fly but it was also a great classroom on what is involved with ownership. 

Dont overthink it, if it's what you want to do find a way and dive in the waters fine.

[jaylw314]

3 minutes ago, bonal said:

If you want to make a spreadsheet because it's something you enjoy doing that's one thing but trying to make an accurate tool for calculating what it costs to own an airplane I think is futile.  Yes you can factor fixed costs like insurance storage fuel and such but one annual can blow all the data out the window. Example, my first annual ended up being more than 50% the purchase price. Thankfully there was nothing that could not be repaired but a lot of things that sadly were not addressed by the previous owner. Totally my fault as I did not do a pre buy inspection. Another example is a C model that was probably one of the nicest and well maintained example in the fleet and shortly after it was purchased suffered a gear colaps that totaled the airplane.

I never considered the costs It was something I wanted to do so dove right in.  I purchased an older Cessna 150 before my first lesson and flew it for a few years before we bought our Mooney. The 150 was not only a great plane to learn how to fly but it was also a great classroom on what is involved with ownership. 

Dont overthink it, if it's what you want to do find a way and dive in the waters fine.

I think it does have a benefit in that it allows you to see everything visually at the same time, even if it is completely inaccurate.  It's kind of like those ADM charts--they don't give any accurate measurement of risk involved, but they are a visual way of pushing you to systematically go through all the variables you should be aware of.

[40-0Flight]

1 minute ago, jaylw314 said:

I think it does have a benefit in that it allows you to see everything visually at the same time, even if it is completely inaccurate.  It's kind of like those ADM charts--they don't give any accurate measurement of risk involved, but they are a visual way of pushing you to systematically go through all the variables you should be aware of.

Well said!    Any "Estimate" has to be taken with a grain of salt...   But when its not "old hat", the exercise of filling one out helps you see the picture.

[bonal]

10 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I think it does have a benefit in that it allows you to see everything visually at the same time, even if it is completely inaccurate.  It's kind of like those ADM charts--they don't give any accurate measurement of risk involved, but they are a visual way of pushing you to systematically go through all the variables you should be aware of.

Or it could trick you into thinking yes this is going to work and then some unforeseen event ends up costing you out of the game. I don't think there is any kind of human activity that has as many variables as flying and airplane ownership. Any day we as a group could get a letter from the FAA that makes all our Mooneys un airworthy unless we repair or replace something that costs more than the airplane is worth. We all think the reward is worth the risk or we wouldn't be here.

[jaylw314]

7 minutes ago, bonal said:

Or it could trick you into thinking yes this is going to work and then some unforeseen event ends up costing you out of the game. I don't think there is any kind of human activity that has as many variables as flying and airplane ownership.

Marriage? 

[40-0Flight]

13 minutes ago, bonal said:

Or it could trick you into thinking yes this is going to work and then some unforeseen event ends up costing you out of the game. I don't think there is any kind of human activity that has as many variables as flying and airplane ownership. Any day we as a group could get a letter from the FAA that makes all our Mooneys un airworthy unless we repair or replace something that costs more than the airplane is worth. We all think the reward is worth the risk or we wouldn't be here.

Risk mitigation is not the removal of risk, but a diligent effort to identify risk as well reduce the likelihood and impact prior to its occurrence.  So your statements are 100% true, and your experience is a great basis expecting the unexpected.   I don't feel it negates the value of a little planning and estimating.   But that is just my 2c.

Edited February 28, 2019 by 40-0Flight

[40-0Flight]

4 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Marriage? 

That was the first thought that went through my mind!!!!  

[Marauder]

As one of the longer time owners here, I can tell you there is some benefit from the spreadsheet approach just from the "keeping the peace" perspective. I am one of those who keep reserves for avionics and engine overhauls. In 2012, after sequestering avionics reserves for years, I laid out the plan for spending 10s of AMU (read multiple 10s) to modernize my avionics stack. Sitting down with the wife and showing her the reserve and my plan was a much easier conversation than someone saying, hey honey! I want to drop $50k on the plane.

The spreadsheet summary also helps me on the proactive maintenance and enhancement side. If I know I am running hot on expenses for the year, I will delay things for the next year or two.

Still, the spreadsheet doesn't fix the issue -- you need lots of money to do this.