Prepurchase inspection in New England

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, orionflt said:

I will tell you that if I saw you were missing your right wing and told you but did nothing to document it or keep you from flying the lawyer your wife hires to sue me will be telling the jury it was all my fault because there is no proof I told you about it and you were too experienced of a pilot to have made a mistake.

Hence the idea of documenting it on the invoice, and having the owner sign the invoice.  You could ask him to write in that he was informed of the item about the missing wing.  That way, you have documentation of it if you keep copies of your invoices.  Or you could insist that he write and sign a letter that he was informed of the wing prior to completing the work.  Or you could refuse to start the requested work and wash your hands of it.  But what you can't do is complete the work and then refuse to return it to service unless the owner repairs the wing.  I'd agree to any of the above as an owner

I've said before that as an analogy in medicine, if you're practicing to not get sued, you're probably practicing bad medicine.  If you're practicing to not get sued successfully, you're probably practicing good medicine...

[orionflt]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Hence the idea of documenting it on the invoice, and having the owner sign the invoice.  You could ask him to write in that he was informed of the item about the missing wing.  That way, you have documentation of it if you keep copies of your invoices.  Or you could insist that he write and sign a letter that he was informed of the wing prior to completing the work.  Or you could refuse to start the requested work and wash your hands of it.  But what you can't do is complete the work and then refuse to return it to service unless the owner repairs the wing.  I'd agree to any of the above as an owner

I've said before that as an analogy in medicine, if you're practicing to not get sued, you're probably practicing bad medicine.  If you're practicing to not get sued successfully, you're probably practicing good medicine...

here is a question for you, your at the airport cleaning up your Mooney after a flight. A C152 comes in and gets a little the pilot veers off the runway hitting a runway light. he taxis in and shuts down. you walk over and you both look at the prop, everything looks ok except for a small nick in one blade.

the pilot asks to borrow a file to blend out the nick......what do you do?

after the pilot gets the tips blended (whether you helped or not) he gets in and does a run up. the run up seems good to him so he says he is going home. what do you do?

he takes  off and heads home against strong recommendations. what do you do? 

you find out later that the airplane belonged to a flight school and the pilot took the airplane back and didn't tell anyone.... it was used for training flights for the next couple of weeks until the prop separated on a 16 year old student on their first solo flight......what did you do??

no, you may not have been able to stop that pilot from taking that plane home. that's the pilots responsibility. Making sure a plane that is not safe to fly is about more then documentation it is about responsibility! that responsibility falls on all of us. 

the first part of this story is true! the flying club I was a member of had a CFI go off the runway at a neighboring airport, only he did not shut down to look at the plane. he taxied back and took off! when he got back he put the plane away and did not tell anyone. because the owners of the FBO at the other airport saw the incident and knew the aircraft they called me to let me know. had it not been for them notifying me we would not have known to do a prop strike inspection on that aircraft.

Brian

[Mooney-Mark]

I wow, I'm getting a headache! This poor guy just wants someone to do a simple pre-purchase inspection on the airplane he is interested in buying!

[RobotsBoston]

I definitely didn't mean to start an argument about PPIs vs Annuals and airworthiness but here we are. Thanks for the suggestions for places to get it inspected! Working on moving forward now with owner so hopefully we get the ball rolling and get the plane inspected (and fixed to be airworthy before flown again if need be).

[jonhop]

In the US. According to Mike Bush's webinars, outside of an annual inspection the only person that can ground an aircraft is a pilot/operator who will/can conduct a flight in a given aircraft. Once an aircraft passes the threshold for its annual inspection time-frame, an A&P/IA must have performed an inspection and signed off on the airworthiness of the aircraft. If there is a disagreement and the pilot/owner wants a second opinion. The A&P/IA must document the work that was performed, annotate the outstanding inspection discrepancies--including the airworthiness items--and provide a logbook entry. The pilot/owner is then allowed to do what ever they please with an unairworthy aircraft.

Owners can park the airplane or take it to another A&P/IA to resolve the issues. The annual inspection language is the concern of @DonMuncy. Annual inspections have ramifications towards FAA regulations and airworthiness and being able to fly a given aircraft. A PPI does NOT have the same ramifications. An A&P/IA may find something that they feel is an airworthiness item but the only person that can ground an in-annual airplane is an owner/operator, at least until when the next annual inspection rolls around or by a FSDO. One of the reasons for Mike Bush's webinars is to educate pilot/owners, so their airplanes don't get held hostage to unscrupulous individuals who hide behind inspections. 

If you are buying from a private owner who is willing to let their airplane go under the annual inspection knife then do it. Don't get offended if they don't go for it... As an owner, if I am selling my airplane that is currently in annual, I would only allow an annual inspection for the buyer if they are using a shop that I explicitly trust or my A&P/IA. I would allow and encourage a buyer to perform a prebuy with whoever they choose, but I would not allow an it to become an inspection/opportunity for my aircraft to become grounded in someone else's maintenance facility. 

If you are buying an airplane from a broker see if they go for an independent annual inspection. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THEY WILL and will probably not take or respond to you as a serious buyer. Just my 2¢...

[carusoam]

Robots,

This is a long standing issue that goes back incredibly far....

The PPI is the best solution we have for it...

Annuals have their legal baggage of what can and can’t be done. Or what happens when...

What worked for me was knowing the shop that was doing the PPI...

The last thing I needed was a problem with somebody else’s airplane...

There must be a dozen steps, Is and Ts to be taken care of...

In the end, if you started with the right bird, it has an annual, and is ready to fly for the next year...

If you are lucky, your PPI exposes things you don’t want to own... you’re out a couple of AMUs, but not on the hook for 10s of AMUs...

If you are unlucky, your PPI doesn’t expose things that are there, and those things are now yours...

It is interesting that we got different views from different people of various backgrounds...

I really like the mechanics view since he has direct experience, down to the ethics level...

Expect me to be somewhat biased... I may know the mechanic that gave his insight...

The challenge with the PPI... unlike the annual... There is no standard to be followed... if you have experience buying and selling similarly complex machines, you are good to go.... if not, you are now relying on somebody to help you get to where you want to be...

My PPI was more extensive than an annual... validating an instrument panel full of IFR devices is a whole other level of testing... I wanted that done before paying for the machine... DMax was the go to guy in TX for that... he flew it and completed some approaches using all of the devices... verifying everything in the sales ad was present and accounted for, and worked as expected...

My first PPI was much shorter... compressions, corrosion check, a log review... I owned the biggest bucket of bolts in the Mooney world...

I had one failed PPI... the bondo was falling off, near the stretched and failed rivets... stuff my mechanic saw in the first few minutes... I had just flown in with the owner, he literally crashed into the runway... he explained this is how to land a Brand P... a good solid landing... getting the down payment back was a little challenging...

All small dollars in the scheme of aviation....

I got extra lucky!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, orionflt said:

here is a question for you, your at the airport cleaning up your Mooney after a flight. A C152 comes in and gets a little the pilot veers off the runway hitting a runway light. he taxis in and shuts down. you walk over and you both look at the prop, everything looks ok except for a small nick in one blade.

the pilot asks to borrow a file to blend out the nick......what do you do?

after the pilot gets the tips blended (whether you helped or not) he gets in and does a run up. the run up seems good to him so he says he is going home. what do you do?

he takes  off and heads home against strong recommendations. what do you do? 

you find out later that the airplane belonged to a flight school and the pilot took the airplane back and didn't tell anyone.... it was used for training flights for the next couple of weeks until the prop separated on a 16 year old student on their first solo flight......what did you do??

no, you may not have been able to stop that pilot from taking that plane home. that's the pilots responsibility. Making sure a plane that is not safe to fly is about more then documentation it is about responsibility! that responsibility falls on all of us. 

the first part of this story is true! the flying club I was a member of had a CFI go off the runway at a neighboring airport, only he did not shut down to look at the plane. he taxied back and took off! when he got back he put the plane away and did not tell anyone. because the owners of the FBO at the other airport saw the incident and knew the aircraft they called me to let me know. had it not been for them notifying me we would not have known to do a prop strike inspection on that aircraft.

Brian

  If you're not simply asking me a rhetorical question, I've got plenty of choices if I felt unsettled about something being unsafe:  

• I could tell him I won't give help him out because I won't participate in an illegal and unsafe activity.
• I could smack him in the back of the head and remind him about his CFI
• I could warn him that I'm writing down the N number to forward my observations to the FSDO and the aircraft owner, so he needs to follow up with appropriate action
• I could threaten, intimidate, cajole, belittle and/or distract him.  I'm good at all those things

What I can't do, though, is reach into he cockpit, take the keys, and refuse to give them back until he agrees with me.  Even though I'm not going to hurt anyone or cause any damage by taking the keys, I have no right and no responsibility to do so.  

 

[orionflt]

8 hours ago, RobotsBoston said:

I definitely didn't mean to start an argument about PPIs vs Annuals and airworthiness but here we are. Thanks for the suggestions for places to get it inspected! Working on moving forward now with owner so hopefully we get the ball rolling and get the plane inspected (and fixed to be airworthy before flown again if need be).

This really isn't an argument and a live form would be a better location for this discussion we get easily sidetracked and head down unrealistic paths. the big question is how far should you go/can you go when there is an airworthy issue and the truth is that depends on the issue and people involved. in all the years I have been working on aircraft I have never had to put an not airworthy entry into a log book, just give a list of findings and work with the owner help get them cleared. 

I brought up the story about the 152 just to remind everyone that safety is everyone's responsibility, @jaylw314 responded as I expect/ would hope all pilots would. unfortunately not everyone steps up to the plate, that is why we have FBO's holding planes hostage and planes flying with hidden problems. hopefully we as a group can change some of this by sharing our knowledge and experience and mentoring new pilots. 

what no one wants to see is that not airworthy entry in their log books even if the airplane truly is not airworthy. I think that they are afraid that after that gets written in a log book the airplane will never be airworthy again, or will be devalued because of it. there are not many of these entries because most pilots when told there is an issue address it immediately, but what happens if a pilot can't afford to address it? Not airworthy is not the death of an aircraft, just a warning that it needs attention before flying again. 

Fly Safe

Brian

[Guest]

18 hours ago, RobotsBoston said:

I definitely didn't mean to start an argument about PPIs vs Annuals and airworthiness but here we are. Thanks for the suggestions for places to get it inspected! Working on moving forward now with owner so hopefully we get the ball rolling and get the plane inspected (and fixed to be airworthy before flown again if need be).

This thread really shows the difficulty for all parties involved.  In the end no one here wants to see anyone buying an airplane with a load of problems which may bankrupt you, or worse kill you.  

Clarence