A good day ends badly in El Paso

[jcovington]

45 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

Wow!

This is something that Happens with McCauleys if a blade is shimmed to tight.

There has to be a little tip-play in the blade or this will be the result. This is a more Extreame case nonetheless some propshop needs to step up to the plate.

If that propshop is mine, No questions asked I will handle it.

 

Cody

Thanks for the information on what caused the failure. It was not your shop and had you done the work I am sure it would not have failed. I don't know who El Paso Aero uses for a prop shop. I will be back in El Paso tomorrow morning and I plan to ask them. 

Jim

[Cody Stallings]

42 minutes ago, jcovington said:

Cody

Thanks for the information on what caused the failure. It was not your shop and had you done the work I am sure it would not have failed. I don't know who El Paso Aero uses for a prop shop. I will be back in El Paso tomorrow morning and I plan to ask them. 

Jim

Okay.

If there is anything we can do to help, don’t hesitate to call.

We will be opening up agin on Thursday.

Shop 870-208-8882

Cell 870-208-5198

[jetdriven]

With less than a year till outright failure I would pursue the prop shop. They have insurance for this very thing, anyway.  This is not a small thing, it’s 8-10 grand and loss of use of your airplane for 3 important trips.  

Ship the prop to Cody for a tear down, inspect, and failure analysis. then take that to the other prop shop and get a new prop from them. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by jetdriven

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

With less than a year till outright failure I would pursue the prop shop. They have insurance for this very thing, anyway.  This is not a small thing, it’s 8-10 grand and loss of use of your airplane for 3 important trips.  

Ship the prop to Cody for a tear down, inspect, and failure analysis. then take that to the other prop shop and get a new prop from them. 

Not that I don’t feel sorry for the owner, but without the missing snap ring, aren’t we jumping to conclusions as to where responsibility lays?

Clarence

[jetdriven]

If the snap ring is missing and the thing was resealed a year ago I think I know where the responsibility Lies, and it’s  not with the operator.  But I did suggest he send it to Cody and have them analyze the failure mode first

[Cody Stallings]

Can you take a picture of the other blade?

With emphasis on the snap ring an shim carrier relationship.

Looks like something chewed through the shim carrier and chewed into the hub.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Cody Stallings
Misspelling

[jcovington]

58 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

Can you take a picture of the other blade?

This is the only picture of the good blade that I have. Hopefully, it shows what you are looking for. 

I stopped by El Paso Aero today. They have the old prop off and it will go to their prop shop tomorrow when they reopen after the holidays.

While I believe that the problem was most likely caused by a mistake by the first prop shop I don't see I have a lot of choice in pursuing the prop repair. The warranty period has expired and I have no proof that the shop messed up. My wife and I are discussing reporting the event to the shop and see if anything happens.

I am on the hook to report the repair resolution to the FAA. I don't know if they will pursue it or not. I kinda doubt that they will. 

Jim

[Cody Stallings]

1 hour ago, jcovington said:

This is the only picture of the good blade that I have. Hopefully, it shows what you are looking for. 

I stopped by El Paso Aero today. They have the old prop off and it will go to their prop shop tomorrow when they reopen after the holidays.

While I believe that the problem was most likely caused by a mistake by the first prop shop I don't see I have a lot of choice in pursuing the prop repair. The warranty period has expired and I have no proof that the shop messed up. My wife and I are discussing reporting the event to the shop and see if anything happens.

I am on the hook to report the repair resolution to the FAA. I don't know if they will pursue it or not. I kinda doubt that they will. 

Jim

It looks like everything is assembled properly.

Make no mistake, there is only one cause of a snap ring departing the prop, That’s when it’s shimmed to tight.

 

[Guest]

Or material failure in the snap ring?  Without it no one knows for sure.

Clarence

[Guest]

7 hours ago, jcovington said:

This is the only picture of the good blade that I have. Hopefully, it shows what you are looking for. 

I stopped by El Paso Aero today. They have the old prop off and it will go to their prop shop tomorrow when they reopen after the holidays.

While I believe that the problem was most likely caused by a mistake by the first prop shop I don't see I have a lot of choice in pursuing the prop repair. The warranty period has expired and I have no proof that the shop messed up. My wife and I are discussing reporting the event to the shop and see if anything happens.

I am on the hook to report the repair resolution to the FAA. I don't know if they will pursue it or not. I kinda doubt that they will. 

Jim

I would certainly call them to let them know what happened to your prop.  They may come to the table with something to relieve the pain.

Clarence

[jcovington]

10 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Or material failure in the snap ring?  Without it no one knows for sure.

Clarence

Judging by the scratches something with a point made the scratches. It looks to me that the snap ring was whole when it left the prop. Like you say though, no way to prove it. 

Jim

[Cody Stallings]

Picture of a C-210 Prop in my floor we resealed last week.

It looks like the snap ring sits deeper an is fully engaged.

[PT20J]

On 12/25/2018 at 7:21 PM, Cody Stallings said:

This is something that Happens with McCauleys if a blade is shimmed to tight.

There has to be a little tip-play in the blade or this will be the result. This is a more Extreame case nonetheless some propshop needs to step up to the plate.

 

Curious how much play a blade should have. The McCauley Owner/Operator manual says up to 1/8” at the tip is normal, but doesn’t mention a minimum. 

[Cody Stallings]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Curious how much play a blade should have. The McCauley Owner/Operator manual says up to 1/8” at the tip is normal, but doesn’t mention a minimum. 

That’s a grey area.

But if a blade tip doesn’t have any wiggle at all, we remove shims.

Being shimmed to tight is how these things happen.

I personally like to see(feel) a slight amount of slack, therefore the relationship between the moving parts aren’t to tight.

 

[jcovington]

On 12/26/2018 at 10:42 PM, jcovington said:

I stopped by El Paso Aero today. They have the old prop off and it will go to their prop shop tomorrow when they reopen after the holidays.

I spoke with El Paso Aero yesterday. The word back from the prop shop is that the prop will require an overhaul but it will not have to be replaced. They have quoted a two week turnaround so, hopefully, I'll have the plane back in a few weeks. I am amazed that the prop could be salvaged after seeing all the blade and hub damage.

Overall, I am good with the overhaul rather than replacement. After @Cody Stallings comments that the problem was most likely a maintenance mistake I am OK putting the prop back on the plane. I expect that the unneeded (at least before the prop came apart) overhaul has shortened the life of the prop but I should get quite a few more years out of it.

I'll let everyone know the final outcome after I get the plane back from El Paso.

Jim

[Sixstring2k]

Glad to hear you guys are ok, good call on going back and landing.

[RLCarter]

21 hours ago, jcovington said:

I am amazed that the prop could be salvaged after seeing all the blade and hub damage.

Remember most of what you see is damaged paint

[Mcstealth]

1 hour ago, RLCarter said:

Remember most of what you see is damaged paint

I was wondering about that. How much was metal, how much is paint?!

 

[jcovington]

3 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

I was wondering about that. How much was metal, how much is paint?!

The scratches at the base of the prop were past the paint and into the metal. There was a divot about half way up the face of the blade that was past the paint. I expected that face divot to kill the blade. I expected the divot out of the hub face to kill the hub. Looks like I was wrong on both counts. 

It will be interesting to see if the paperwork from the prop shop talks about the repairs that were required. I should know in a couple of weeks. 

Jim

[MikeOH]

WOW!

What a story.

The real question, at this point, is if your WIFE is okay with this prop going back on the plane?

[David Lloyd]

Any feedback from the original prop shop?

[jcovington]

44 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

WOW!

What a story.

The real question, at this point, is if your WIFE is okay with this prop going back on the plane?

She is OK with the repairs that are being made. She was fairly concerned with reusing the prop to begin with. The comments here have helped her (and me) understand the situation. 

Jim

[jcovington]

57 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

Any feedback from the original prop shop?

At this point I am still annoyed with the original prop shop although I don't believe it is anything more than a mistake. They have serviced the prop in the past and have performed well. After discussing the issue with several people I respect, I have decided to leave it at being annoyed and not pursue the matter.

I wasn't comfortable telling El Paso Aero which prop shop to use for the repair as I didn't think that was fair to them. I couldn't get the plane home to use my normal repair shop. It put me between a rock and a hard spot. Had the failure happened here where I could have sent the prop back to the original shop I would have handled it differently. 

Jim

[nfonville]

Have they told you who the prop shop is doing the work?

[jcovington]

1 hour ago, nfonville said:

Have they told you who the prop shop is doing the work?

El Paso Aero uses New Mexico Propellor. They are located outside of Albuquerque. They told me when I dropped off the plane that El Paso Aero had been using them for about 30 years. 

Jim