231 vs 252 vs 305

[SpookyTex]

Okay, I have been looking at Mooney's for a couple years now and am ready to purchase. I know I want a K model for long trips. The question boils down to which one to shoot for. I think the 231 will meet my needs, and I have a good feeling for the pricing and options. The 252 and 305 though, would also meet my needs and are within the budget, however, at the top of my acquisition range. The biggest question then, is how do they differ in terms of annual service, insurance, and the big overhaul. I know the operating costs go up per hour for the fuel burn, but that is made up in speed and/or throttling back (way back on the 305).

If any of you have any experience, what is a rough annual price (w/o major upgrades) on the 252 and 305, and how much does the insurance go up for them?

Thanks for any help.

 

DP

[Parker_Woodruff]

Insurance will be about the same for you.  The hull rates will decrease as the hull value increases.  In other words, one is not more desirable than the other.  Unless you're really low time, you won't have a costly insurance experience with the 305hp bird.

The Rocket will take some extra care throughout the year as I believe there is a 60 hour AD on the exhaust/turbo.  Not a problem since you can handle this at every oil change.  The overhaul is going to be more on the Rocket, and you have to do it more frequently when referencing TBO.

[jlunseth]

You should think about your mission.  If you think you will fly in icing conditions, then you need the 252.  Even if you don't buy one with TKS, FIKI TKS cannot be fitted to a 231, so you will not be able to fly in ice.  I don't know whether the 305 can be deiced.  And if you think that you won't need icing because you live in FL, I have heard lots of stories from pilots who have encounter icing in FL.  Turbos are great, but in the winter months you have to have the ability to punch through an overcast layer that is below freezing, or you don't go anywhere.

If you don't think icing is in your mission plan, the 231 is a great plane.  I really like mine, great fuel flow.  Make sure you get the LB engine, intercooler and Merlyn wastegate aftermarket mods.  All those things are already in the 252 and Rocket.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: jlunseth

I don't know whether the 305 can be deiced.  And if you think that you won't need icing because you live in FL, I have heard lots of stories from pilots who have encounter icing in FL.

[kortopates]

I owned a 231 before my current 252 and I would highly recommend the 252 or Encore. I could take an hour to describe all the improvments, but quite simply besides getting a real turbo installation with tuned induction system (rather than just a compressor with after market options for the intercooler and adjustable wastegate) you get a whole lot more including a 28V electrical system with 4 times the electical capacity with the dual alternator (70 amp) options, and many other airframe differences including higher gear speed, rear bucket seats that fold down and lift out, the electric cowl flaps that enable micro adjustment of temps without a speed loss you get with the 231's cowl flaps, and many options that became standard, and on and on. Download the type cert and you can go over some performance differences such as gear speed and the critical alt of 23k with max altitude of 28K (not that you'll want to go much higher than the lower 20's) - but ideally you'd like to compare the performance tables too. The 252 was the turbo installation done right and the last of a long line of ever improving fuel efficient Mooney's till speed & HP seemingly became the biggest market priority to retain the title of fastest single. Among all the K's, opertaing and maintenance cost will be on a par, yet with the 252 & Encore being a bit more efficient/faster and cooler running than the 231. There aren't very many 252's though in comparison to the much larger 231 fleet and even fewer Encores that provide the increased max gross load with the SB engine - but what a great time to be a buyer!

Either way, you can't go wrong with any of them.

[jax88]

I suppose there is a reason that long time Mooney experts still light up when they start talking about the 252.  I had more than one tell me how the 252 was the best Mooney ever built while I was contemplating the same choices you're speaking of.

[fantom]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

[aviatoreb]

Quote: kortopates

There aren't very many 252's though in comparison to the much larger 231 fleet and even fewer Encores that provide the increased max gross load with the SB engine - but what a great time to be a buyer!...

[jlunseth]

I completely agree with what Paul says about the differences going from a 231 to a 252.

I have never been too concerned about "high ice," meaning ice up in the teens or low FL's where turbos fly, as long as there is room below to get out of it.  By "not too concerned" I am not saying I would blithely fly into it, rather would just choose a lower altitude, or if I get into it inadvertently, would ask for a lower altitude and the problem would be solved. 

However, there are lots of circumstances where the ice is not "high ice" even it FL.  On a cold (for FL) winter day when the ground temp is around 40,  you would hit ice at 2,000, and might hit it lower than that.  We have also had ice concerns at 10,000 climbing out to cross the Rockies, where the overcast went to FL21 and lower was not going to be an option.  We never got into ice, but I was sure concerned about it. 

The 231 is generally cheaper than the other options, both in terms of initial cost and in fuel costs, but you need to look at your mission and ask yourself what you are going to want the plane to do.  If you are going to do a good deal of IFR, then I would get the 252 for several reasons.  Icing equipment is one, but in IFR you would sure like to have the 252's second generator, and its back-up vacuum pump, and a few other things it has going for it.

[RJBrown]

I owned a 231 and flew it for about 100 hours before converting it to a Rocket. I flew it another 800 before selling.

 "The overhaul is going to be more on the Rocket, and you have to do it more frequently when referencing TBO."

Per mile traveled both are about equal assuming both make TBO. In real life the Rocket has the advantage. Most TSIO360 don't get to 1800 and if they do it is with a top in between. The 520 easily makes its TBO (usually more) 1800 is more common with a 520 than a 360.

Paul's discussion of 231 vs 252 is pretty accurate. The 252 is what the 231 should have been. Mooney was cheap and premature in selling the 231. With intercooler and wastegate added to a 231 it helps but the 252 is better to fly and maintain.

The Ice discussion comes from a pilot in Minneapolis MN. Much bigger deal north and northeast. I normally fly south and west and would not choose the added expense and complication of TKS. TKS can be added to any K but only the 252 can have FIKI. IMHO the difference in safety is small. The safest of the 3 would be a TKS Rocket. The climb performance of a Rocket is amazing. Above or below the ice level is safe. With the ability to climb 1500 per at 24000 the time exposed is much less with the Rocket.

Rocket engineering did all the flight tests to certify to 31000 but did not proceed to certification. The flight performance was the easy part the cost to do it was what stopped them. Highest I ever got was 26000 and I only needed to get that high 3 times. Allowed my to stay in the clear. All 3 times I was alone in the plane and relatively light. Climb was still at 1500' per minute. 300 knot ground speeds east bound are fun to see.

The only ice that ever scared me was induction icing at 21000' in the 231. Lost power up high and did not get it back until on approach to Centennial.

The current market gives the Rockets an advantage over the 252. A lot more performance for less money up front. If fuel burn is a real concern at 55% a Rocket does 186 @ 12000 on about a gallon more than the 252. The Rocket will carry more, higher and faster than any other Mooney.

What I miss most flying my 1990 MSE is the climb. What I bought for a fast efficient retirement plane leaves me wanting at times. It is hard to go back after owning a Rocket.

 

[SpookyTex]

Thanks to all for the inputs. Good discussions on TKS and icing considerations. I am going to fly with flashf16 this morning and check out his 262. WX here should be beautiful so I am looking forward to it.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: aviatoreb

As far as a FIKI rocket, isn't it all about the dual alternators on the 252?  So a 252 to rocket conversion could still be fiki I would guess vs a converted 231, but I would check course before purchasing.

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

CAV Aerospace certifies the plane, not the system for FIKI.  So it is important that the aircraft have no airframe/engine mods that aren't on the FIKI STC sheet (Rocket has a different cowl and engine) in order to be certified as FIKI.

I have the PDF that shows the parts requirements, if only I could upload that here...