Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 As stated by Marauder, this looks very different than what I am seeing. Thank you very much for the pictures though. Quote
MikeOH Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Just now, Flyingfisher said: As stated by Marauder, this looks very different than what I am seeing. Thank you very much for the pictures though. Honestly, I think you'll be better off trouble shooting WITHOUT the box to worry about! 1 Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 Just now, Marauder said: Fly - post us pictures when you can. We’ll be here. I really suspect they have shorted something. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Of this I have no doubt, just finding it is the issue. Just really wondering how or where, as it doesn't seem like anything they did would be a prime candidate for it aside from the circuit breaker. Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Honestly, I think you'll be better off trouble shooting WITHOUT the box to worry about! Good to hear. So what do you think? People say trace the wires but this doesn't seem feasible to me given the situation i'm seeing behind the panel. Can I check the wires at the breaker to see if they have been shorted to ground with the ohms setting on a voltmeter by testing them at the back of the breaker itself? I have a good IA I work with frequently but he is scratching his head too... plus he is buttoning up my top overhaul at the moment haha Edited August 4, 2018 by Flyingfisher Quote
carusoam Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Rhea, I tried to summarize what you know about the situation...but there are a few things I need help with... 1)Master on... 2) Green gear light is out... 3) gages CB pops... 4) reset, gages CB pops immediately... ? 5) Test button, when pushed... also trips the gages CB... (what test button is this?) 6) which actions cause the gages CB to trip? 7) are there any other CBs that trip? 8) The gear position indicator in the floor is reliable. It is mechanical, when perfectly in place it can only mean one thing... 9) You really want to know, or need to know what isn’t working without the gages CB... stall warning, gear warning and other important things might be attached to it, something to be familiar with... Check you MEL list in your POH... PP thoughts only... -a- How familiar with the green gear down light are you? Green gear light is an iris, twist to open the iris, twist to close... push to test... You should be able to twist and push to make the green light appear.... Quote
MikeOH Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, Flyingfisher said: Good to hear. So what do you think? People say trace the wires but this doesn't seem feasible to me given the situation i'm seeing behind the panel. Can I check the wires at the breaker to see if they have been shorted to ground with the ohms setting on a voltmeter by testing them at the back of the breaker itself? I have a good IA I work with frequently but he is scratching his head too... plus he is buttoning up my top overhaul at the moment haha Yes. Pull the CB, or get it to trip! Then, use the ohmmeter setting to probe the switched side (NOT the side of the CB going to the buss!) of the CB to ground. It will likely read close to zero. That will confirm the short. Unfortunately, it then gets difficult as it's a mass of bundled wires...a schemtic will help as you can go to where the schematic indicates and disconnect, then recheck to ground...move on to the next location...not going to be easy. I'd probably start by crawling under the panel with a bright flashlight and trying to look for something that doesn't 'look right.' Some evidence of a burn mark, or bare wire, look at points where wires might chafe against metal. 2 Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, carusoam said: Rhea, I tried to summarize what you know about the situation...but there are a few things I need help with... 1)Master on... 2) Green gear light is out... Both gear annunciator lights are out (GR UNSAFE and GR DOWN) 3) gages CB pops... Sort of, only when I press the annunciator test light button. 4) reset, CB pops immediately... ? Yes, quicker than I can take my finger off of it. 5) Test button, when pushed... also trips the gages CB... (what test button is this?) Annunciator TEST button on the glareshield see pic 6) which actions cause the gages CB to trip? Only pressing the test button for the annunciator causes the GAGES CB to trip Quote 7) are there any other CBS that trip? Nope! How familiar with the green gear down light are you? Green gear light is an iris, twist to open the iris, twist to close... push to test... You should be able to twist and push to make the green light appear.... I don't believe this is true for my A/C Edited August 4, 2018 by Flyingfisher 2 Quote
carusoam Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Great summary update, Rhea! I’m going to invite another MSer to the conversation, but it may be a bit late in his part of Canada right now... @M20Doc Have a great evening folks, -a- Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 Just now, carusoam said: Great summary update, Rhea! I’m going to invite another MSer to the conversation, but it may be a bit late in his part of Canada right now... @M20Doc Have a great evening folks, -a- Thanks, the more the merrier, I may be signing off shortly as well. Have to wake up in 5 hours haha! 1 Quote
Marauder Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Look familiar?That “gauges” breaker is along the edge. There should be a piece of rubber between that outside breaker and the plane. If they removed it, the breaker could be shorting out when you push the button. Have you opened the panel and tried pushing the test button and see what happens?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 2 Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Marauder said: Look familiar? That “gauges” breaker is along the edge. There should be a piece of rubber between that outside breaker and the plane. If they removed it, the breaker could be shorting out when you push the button. Have you opened the panel and tried pushing the test button and see what happens? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Yes I have that EXACT button for gear Bypass in my A/C. and the same interior haha! You're saying something inside there could be the problem? One of the wires going to it is very frayed but not touching anything. There could very easily be another. Actually we did some TKM replacements for my old KX170's and a new ES330 xponder and removed the ADF, inop stormscope, Loran, and the ancient Argus, covered the holes with that exact same material haha Edited August 4, 2018 by Flyingfisher Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Marauder said: Have you opened the panel and tried pushing the test button and see what happens? I have pushed it but I don't recall trying it in both configurations or holding it etc. Quote
carusoam Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Fantastic pic, Marauder! And generous to not show the rest of the panel.... Marauder has removed his DME, ADF and few other things... to see what is behind the CB panel might be possible by removing the glare shield and taking a few pics looking down... Using the darkroom technique, can be scary, possibly helpful... but it isn’t normal to keep shorting out a circuit... as unknown things can be affected... that electricity is going somewhere... -a- Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, carusoam said: to see what is behind the CB panel might be possible by removing the glare shield and taking a few pics looking down... Using the darkroom technique, can be scary, possibly helpful... but it isn’t normal to keep shorting out a circuit... as unknown things can be affected... that electricity is going somewhere... -a- Yeah I actually pulled the circuit breaker panel and seperated that section from the dash. Just couldn't see anything in there. May try hitting it with some compressed air or something though, there's 40 years of shmutz in there. Ill try to snag some pics tuesday of it. Though of course the Manifold pressure/fuel pressure gauge are pretty much right in the way as is the EGT guage. Quote
carusoam Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Look for little bits of metal flake from drilling in and around the panel... messy equipment installs have a tendency to leave shorting materials in the wrong place... With the CB panel open and accessible... tracing the wires attached to the CB is ‘all’ it takes... one wire is the supply and should be hot... How many wires are coming off the downstream end? This is where the wiring diagrams can really help. PP thoughts only. Best regard, -a- Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, carusoam said: Look for little bits of metal flake from drilling in and around the panel... messy equipment installs have a tendency to leave shorting materials in the wrong place... With the CB panel open and accessible... tracing the wires attached to the CB is ‘all’ it takes... one wire is the supply and should be hot... How many wires are coming off the downstream end? This is where the wiring diagrams can really help. PP thoughts only. Best regard, -a- Good point, there's only what appears to be two wires coming from the breaker proper. I just figured it could be a multitude of things in the circuit itself that could be causing the short. That hand drawn diagram helps, but I'll make sure to peek at the POH, for some reason I didn't think they would have something like this system in there. Quote
carusoam Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 We have seen in the past... pics of metal flakes that cause shorts in whatever they fall into... Follow gravity from wherever your new DME was put in... See if there is anything obvious around there... If there is a bunch of metal flakes and curls on the floor, that would be a hint of some messy activity... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Marauder Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Yes I have that EXACT button for gear Bypass in my A/C. and the same interior haha! You're saying something inside there could be the problem? One of the wires going to it is very frayed but not touching anything. There could very easily be another. Actually we did some TKM replacements for my old KX170's and a new ES330 xponder and removed the ADF, inop stormscope, Loran, and the ancient Argus, covered the holes with that exact same material haha Yeah, it could be that when they reinstalled the breaker panel, it is touching the outer skin of the plane. If you remove the screws and pull the breaker panel forward a bit, then try pushing the test button. Those breakers are jammed in there and I think something could be touching. Yeah, sounds like you did the same stuff I did. I pulled the ADF, the LORAN, the INOP StormScope and a few other things. I tried matching that material a while ago. Gave up and had new panels made. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Marauder said: Yeah, it could be that when they reinstalled the breaker panel, it is touching the outer skin of the plane. If you remove the screws and pull the breaker panel forward a bit, then try pushing the test button. Those breakers are jammed in there and I think something could be touching. Yeah, sounds like you did the same stuff I did. I pulled the ADF, the LORAN, the INOP StormScope and a few other things. I tried matching that material a while ago. Gave up and had new panels made. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Awesome looking panel, I don';t have anything nearly so fancy but she gets the job done. Only real IFR I do is through layers and rain, I don't mess around with anything crazy single piston so I figure I don't need all too much, but very very nice sir! Ill make sure to poke around some more when I get back sounds promising. Oh could this be possibly from the manual gear lowering system not being entirely stowed? Quote
Marauder Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Awesome looking panel, I don';t have anything nearly so fancy but she gets the job done. Only real IFR I do is through layers and rain, I don't mess around with anything crazy single piston so I figure I don't need all too much, but very very nice sir! Ill make sure to poke around some more when I get back sounds promising. Oh could this be possibly from the manual gear lowering system not being entirely stowed? Nope. Manual landing gear won’t have an effect on what you are seeing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote
Guitarmaster Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 (edited) I tried to take pics of the schematic overall and close up on the different sections. Hope it helps! Since our planes were the transition planes to the 201, there are no schematics specific to these serial numbers. I have found the one that came with my plane to be pretty accurate though. Edited August 4, 2018 by Guitarmaster 1 Quote
Guitarmaster Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 9 hours ago, Marauder said: The indicator on the floor is physically attached to the gear system. Unless the plastic piece breaks, it is very reliable to indicate gear position. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Mooney actually calls the floor indicator the primary indication. the light is only secondary. Quote
Marauder Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 I tried to take pics of the schematic overall and close up on the different sections. Hope it helps! Since our planes were the transition planes to the 201, there are no schematics specific to these serial numbers. I have found the one that came with my plane to be pretty accurate though. Wouldn’t it be nice if these were all available electronically?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote
Flyingfisher Posted August 4, 2018 Author Report Posted August 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Marauder said: Nope. Manual landing gear won’t have an effect on what you are seeing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Thanks for all the schematics! Just landed in Denver lol I'm so envious of your panel hahah it's nicer than my work panel lmao and yikes I don't even know where to start. Back to the breakers I guess lol Quote
Marauder Posted August 4, 2018 Report Posted August 4, 2018 Thanks for all the schematics! Just landed in Denver lol I'm so envious of your panel hahah it's nicer than my work panel lmao and yikes I don't even know where to start. Back to the breakers I guess lol Do the simple stuff first. Loosening up the breaker panel and testing is the easiest. From there it is a matter of degrees of hard. Also, don’t discount those breakers going bad. I have replaced almost all of them over the 27 years I have owned my F. Some failed like you are seeing. I still think it is a short but stranger things have happened. BTW - I’d take your work panel any day. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote
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