I finally flew a Cirrus for the first time....

[Bob_Belville]

22 hours ago, jasona900 said:

That is an interesting perspective.  When visiting the Mooney display at Oshkosh last year, I could best describe the Mooney reps there as "snooty".  Granted, I do not have the means to purchase one new, and it was very apparent that was the case. 

That's disappointing. I received friendly treatment from all concerned both there including being given bling I did not ask for. I am not a potential new Mooney buyer. But I hope "we're" getting our act up to speed on several fronts. 

[Seth]

On 3/13/2018 at 6:00 PM, Joe Zuffoletto said:

Last night I got my BFR/IPC in a WAAS G1000 equipped, 2013 Cirrus SR20, because I'm in Denver and my Mooney is in California.

I've ridden right seat in a Cirrus before but I've never flown one, so the thrill of getting my checkouts done in an unfamiliar aircraft - at night - was also thrown into the mix.

This was a heavily used flying club aircraft, so the interior was pretty beat up for only being 5 years old. It reminded me of how incredibly fortunate I am to own my own planes.

I strapped in and definitely noticed the more upright seating position, which we're all aware of. It's definitely a comfortable airplane. My instructor and I were separated by almost a foot, but he's a skinny 21-year-old kid. I like the 5-point harness (as I do in my RV) because it keeps you from cracking your head on the ceiling when the ride gets rough.

We were cleared to taxi to KAPA 35R, which is - no joke - a 2-mile road trip from where the plane was hangared. Making this taxi in my Mooney or RV is a breeze, but in the Cirrus it was exhausting. I've flown many planes with free-castering nosewheels, but the ground handling of this Cirrus was atrocious. The feel of the rudder pedals was extremely heavy. I struggled to keep it going in a straight line, but I figured out that if you taxi faster you get a little bit of rudder authority and it gets easier. Now I know why Cirrus pilots taxi so fast.

The takeoff roll was much easier to manage and the plane accelerated briskly. I liked the combined throttle/prop control. The side stick was immediately comfortable to me - I wish my Acclaim had them. Once in the air, though, I realized that I didn't like the control feel at all. Maneuvering the airplane with the side stick took a lot more force than I would have expected, mostly in roll, and although I made several trim adjustments, it just never felt like it was quite in trim (even when it was). I think side sticks and push rods would be a much better combo.

Once we leveled off in cruise, I engaged the autopilot, and the plane became docile and basically a slower version of my Mooney.

We headed to Front Range to fly our first two approaches. We started with the ILS RWY 35, which we flew on autopilot (part of the point of an IPC with the G1000 is making sure your buttonology for flying coupled approaches is correct). That approach went perfectly, and then we went missed and got vectored back around for the RNAV/GPS RWY 35. We requested the course reversal on this approach, which is a holding pattern, and flew that portion on autopilot. Then we disengaged the autopilot and I flew the remainder of the LPV approach by hand. It was easy to track the glideslope and the approach went perfectly, but my forearm was getting tired from manipulating the sidestick!

Once again we went missed and got vectors back for the ILS RW 35R at Centennial. I flew the entire remainder of the flight by hand. We decided to approach to circle-and-land minimums, then did a sidestep to 35L. I flew a very stabilized approach and much to my surprise I totally stuck the landing.

Overall I thought the Cirrus was just OK. I did not at all expect the poor ground handling characteristics and heaviness of the controls, but I was able to fly IFR approaches at night smoothly and confidently in spite of this. The single throttle control is nice, but at the end of the day it doesn't reduce your workload that much. I have to think that a newer, owner-flown model handles much more smoothly and easily, but I doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to fly one. In any case, just thought I'd share my experience with everyone, and I hope to hear from others who've flown them.

Thank you for the impartial write up.  Very good information.

 

-Seth

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Thanks, Seth. It wasn’t my intention to badmouth Cirrus. I just wanted to report what I experienced. 

[Jerry Pressley]

Damage your Cirrus and see how you like it then.  

[Mooney in Oz]

On 15/03/2018 at 12:25 AM, jasona900 said:

When visiting the Mooney display at Oshkosh last year, I could best describe the Mooney reps there as "snooty".  Granted, I do not have the means to purchase one new, and it was very apparent that was the case. 

A mate of mine who went there with the intention of placing a deposit on a new Ovation received the same type of attitude.  He decided on the spot he was not going to be treated that way and walked, resulting in a genuine missed sale opportunity.

Victor

[DAVIDWH]

If you think those Mooney reps were "Snooty" this year, at least you could understand them.

Word on the street is next year they will be speaking Mandarin.

[Ftlausa]

Cirrus aircraft have all the bells and whistles you could ever want in a single engine GA aircraft.  The automation appeals to well healed lower time pilots with excess disposable income.  And the parachute appeals to them and their passengers.  I have a fair amount of time in Cirrus aircraft, and I just don't like the way they fly.   They are not a good handling airplane in my opinion, particularly low and slow.  I know they got their accident rate down, but they still have lots of stall spins. 

I do like the parachute for the right emergency, and I definitely like the extra interior space and 4 point harness to reduce the head bumps on the ceiling.  As much as I hate to say it, I will probably end up getting one at some point as my last plane for the peace of mind it will give my wife -- but I won't enjoy flying as much as I do in my Mooney.        

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, DAVIDWH said:

If you think those Mooney reps were "Snooty" this year, at least you could understand them.

Word on the street is next year they will be speaking Mandarin.

Is this just to demonstrate your xenophobia? You do realize Mooney has been owned by the Meijing Group since 2013? This has undoubtedly been a lifesaver, job saver, and wonderful turn of events for the good folks in Kerrville, TX.

Mooney certainly has challenges, but Chinese money is not one of them. Without it, there would be no Mooney today.

 

[ragedracer1977]

I flew left seat in an SR20 a while back. My cfi needed to shoot some approaches for currency and we decided to check me out in the Cirrus at the same time, just cause we could.  I personally found the Cirrus more cramped and less comfortable than my C. My head was bumping into the ceiling, we were rubbing shoulders more than I would like. Couldn't stretch out my legs, and I really didn't like the control feel.  I'll fly it again, but I really do prefer my Mooney.

[Seth]

9 hours ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

Thanks, Seth. It wasn’t my intention to badmouth Cirrus. I just wanted to report what I experienced. 

Joe-

Seemed pretty impartial to me.  You gave facts based on your opinion.  I don't think it was Cirrus bashing, I think it was simply a good PIREP from a pilot who has experience in many different aircraft.

Now I want the RV-8 PIREP at some point!

-Seth

Edited March 18, 2018 by Seth

[gsxrpilot]

32 minutes ago, Seth said:

Now I want the RV-8 PIREP at some point!

+1 

[bradp]

It’s kind of like how the Bonanza crew describe the Mooney controls as “heavy” and we’d describe Bonanza controls as “squishy” and having  “Chevy impala like responsiveness”.  They’d retort theirs are “well balanced and harmonious” and we’d say ours are “direct”.  At least there is a direct tactile feedback response for the control surfaces for both these traditional airframes.  

Not so much in the early Cirri ... but my understanding is that that bungee system was redesigned in the later models to provide some improved feedback response?.  Cirrus must take some feedback towards improvements with their yearly incremental improvements.  

I love our Mooney’s and they fly great.  Those cirrus airframes do offer a good fit for a certain market, though.  And... they seem to be keeping GA alive at this point. 

What’s the most impressive design improvement from Mooney in the last almost 15 years... a door.  Yup... a door.  The M10 - neat as it is / was ... didn’t have a market really.  Trainer market?  Really.  @koropates probably knows the actual market dynamics better than anyone else- but  prima facie the market seems half baked.   A little too much airplane for that role perhaps.  Designed primarily for “cadet” type flying schools with instructor / student / observer setup.  But no market or utility beyond.  Cirrus has proven that you can train in an SR20, travel in an SR22, and each model has a logical step up.   Simply having designed a four seat M10, a higher UL/faster M20 update and a high flying TN version of the same would have maybe been a competitor lineup?  Who knows.  

Anyway  thanks for the PIREP.  

[Wayne Cease]

On 3/18/2018 at 12:23 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

I flew left seat in an SR20 a while back. My cfi needed to shoot some approaches for currency and we decided to check me out in the Cirrus at the same time, just cause we could.  I personally found the Cirrus more cramped and less comfortable than my C. My head was bumping into the ceiling, we were rubbing shoulders more than I would like. Couldn't stretch out my legs, and I really didn't like the control feel.  I'll fly it again, but I really do prefer my Mooney.

Are you sure you were in a Cirrus?  

I'm 6' tall and I can push the seat back to where I can't reach the rudder pedals.  The cabin is wide enough that there is an arm rest with storage in it.  I've never had a shoulder space issue, even with two guys in the front seats.

Now, it doesn't have the control feel of a Mooney, but the cabin size?  

 

[ragedracer1977]

8 hours ago, Wayne Cease said:

Are you sure you were in a Cirrus?  

I'm 6' tall and I can push the seat back to where I can't reach the rudder pedals.  The cabin is wide enough that there is an arm rest with storage in it.  I've never had a shoulder space issue, even with two guys in the front seats.

Now, it doesn't have the control feel of a Mooney, but the cabin size?  

 

The cirrus cabin IS about 4" wider, but in my Mooney my CFI and I don't sit next to each other.  He sits farther forward than I do.  In the Cirrus we we're even, which gave a sense of less room.  I don't prefer the upright chair like seating in the Cirrus.  I'm more comfortable with my butt close to the floor and my legs stretched out.  Nothing wrong with either and it's certainly personal preference.  I just find my Mooney more comfortable

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I hand flew my Acclaim today and can unequivocally state that it is much more responsive and user friendly in the controls than the Cirrus.

I'm glad I had the opportunity to fly the Cirrus. It was a great learning experience.

[triple8s]

IMHO, ive flown short mooneys, 231 mooney, ovation and acclaim. I own a 96 ovation and imho the only step up from the O would be the acclaim and from there a Twin Bo, an aerostar or turbo prop neither of which would be worth the extra maintenance expense for my flying needs. Hard to beat a Mooney