pattern etiquette question

[Mooneymite]

8 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

Why do they have the right away? Why am I the better man for giving way?

Jets don't have right of way over you, or anyone else.  We're bound by the same FARs and etiquette as you.

We have limited visibility, need more real estate and can't go as slow as you.

We will do virtually anything to ensure a safe operation.

We expect the same from you.

Is that fair?

[xcrmckenna]

Jets don't have right of way over you, or anyone else.  We're bound by the same FARs and etiquette as you.
We have limited visibility, need more real estate and can't go as slow as you.
We will do virtually anything to ensure a safe operation.
We expect the same from you.
Is that fair?

I think you are taking what I said the wrong way by quoting just those lines. And ignoring everything else. I was being facetious by saying that jets have the right away. And I said earlier we can't use the FAR's or the pecking order only when it fits our argument. And I'm okay if things are not fair, just consistent so I know what to expect when I am flying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, xcrmckenna said:

... by quoting just those lines. And ignoring everything else. ...

Yeah....I know.  That wasn't fair was it?    Jet guys are all the same.     At least that's consistent.  

Your point is well taken.  Jets are very capable in some ways, but limited in others.  We just have to use our respective strengths to make the uncontrolled environment as safe as possible.

[Marauder]

It is kind of treat when we have jet traffic at my rural non towered home drome. Kind of like a celebrity sighting. It is rare enough, though, that it is definitely unexpected when it happens.  
They tend to do a good job of announcing their intentions and I think most GA folks just try to stay out of their way. 

Same at my airport.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[toto]

Just now, daver328 said:

What is it?

 

Cirrus Jet..

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Same at my airport.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Boy, you just undid all of their wonderful, carefully posed marketing shots! "Butt ugly" and "ungainly" would be compliments if this photo isn't distorted . . . .

[cliffy]

Its still a single engine so when the candle goes out what are you left with?

[xcrmckenna]

Yeah....I know.  That wasn't fair was it?    Jet guys are all the same.   <_ at least that consistent.> Your point is well taken.  Jets are very capable in some ways, but limited in others.  We just have to use our respective strengths to make the uncontrolled environment as safe as possible.

I think we can agree with that...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

Here it is going vrooom vroooom— guess who is asking for one for Christmas?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

You better have been really nice this year, Chris!

Dunno 'bout him, but it's impossible for me to be that nice!!

[Hank]

22 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Here it is going vrooom vroooom— guess who is asking for one for Christmas?
 

 

Such a manly roar! Err, uh, whine?

Edited October 20, 2017 by Hank

[Marauder]

Such a manly roar! Err, uh, whine?

I didn’t care for the high pitch either but that kerosene sure smelled nice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BKlott]

14 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

As Daver said, VFR in the pattern has RoW over everyone else at a VFR noncontrolled airport.  However, I would yield to a direct-to-final inbound if, and only if, I had him visual and could see that if I turned final, there would be a conflict.  I'd rather be "wrong" and alive to go around the pattern again than be "right" and dead.

saw something similar this past Sunday at OFP.  2-3 aircraft in the pattern, left traffic, and here comes a Citation making an extended right base-to-final.  Someone comes up "hey, the pattern at OFP is LEFT traffic, buddy", citation replies "no shit." and keeps right on coming.  forced everyone else to go around.

I might be inclined to write down the offender’s registration number, the date and time of the event along with the information of the other aircraft in the pattern which were forced to go around. Then I would consider filing a written report to the appropriate FSDO. My guess is that a letter or phone call from an FAA Inspector to the offender would be a highly effective way to get the message across.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Marauder said:

Here it is going vrooom vroooom— guess who is asking for one for Christmas?
 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

His PoH clearly doesn't say step on the brakes and retract the gear as soon as airborne.  

Oh the joys of extra climb performance!

Clarence

[Bob - S50]

15 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

That's cool, and pilots willing to work around others is great. I'm not reading many story's or posts of jet pilots working around other traffic. I was wondering why? Would you of done the S turns if the Aeronca hadn't changed his landing runway? And why would it if been a problem if you did them? I give way to a jet just about every time I fly into Bend Oregon "uncontrolled airport as you know". I don't have a problem with it. And haven't had one cut me off. But don't know how many would if I didn't extend my downwind while they are on a straight in approach. Either we have the FAR's or we have the pecking order. Can't have both to suit the argument or excuses at a particular time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes.  We were already doing S turns when the Aeronca made the offer.  Thankfully, tower accepted his offer.  If need be, we would have done a go-around to avoid a conflict.  There were very few airports we flew into without an operating tower.  There were several, however, at which the tower was closed when we arrived or departed.  When that was the case, it was either so early or so late that there was rarely any other traffic.

[N201MKTurbo]

13 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I wonder what it costs to go around in one of those bad boys. Hundreds?  Thousands? Total operating costs. Not just the fuel. 

Last I heard it cost about $5000 / hour to rent one for flight training.

Edited October 20, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[N201MKTurbo]

From Quora:

 

The CS300 costs around $5937.91 per hour, the 737-700 costs around $7073.40 per hour, the A320 costs around $7099.0 per hour, while the Boeing 757 costs around $8,383.15 per hour.

With limited data on the dual engine widebodies, it appears that the Boeing 767 costs around $9,138.19 per hour to operate, the 777 costs around $8,383.15 per hour, and the Airbus A330 costs around $5937.91 per hour.

[Mooneymite]

As expensive as a go-around is for a big jet, it is often much cheaper than not going-around.  

[peevee]

When I was in college FedEx was still running 727s into our home airport. Controller cleared a girl to touch and go ahead of the 27 and she must have taken a little too long, they sent the 27 around.

 

The captain keyed up and in a southern accent just said "ma'am, do you have any idea how much it costs to go around in a seven twenty seven?"

[flyboy0681]

How about this go-around

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/19/air-berlin-pilots-suspended-saying-dignified-goodbye-fly-by/

 

[Hank]

29 minutes ago, peevee said:

When I was in college FedEx was still running 727s into our home airport. Controller cleared a girl to touch and go ahead of the 27 and she must have taken a little too long, they sent the 27 around.

 

The captain keyed up and in a southern accent just said "ma'am, do you have any idea how much it costs to go around in a seven twenty seven?"

It costs the pilot zero to go around. Not so for my Mooney.

Besides, isn't the airport equal access for everyone, on a First Come, First Served basis? Never heard that aircraft size, cost or operating expenses factored into the right of way rules . . . Although some jet and twin pilots, as well as a few truck drivers, seem to think that it does. 

[Mooneymite]

6 minutes ago, Hank said:

....Besides, isn't the airport equal access for everyone, on a First Come, First Served basis?...

Are you talking theory, or reality?  

[xcrmckenna]

Not to sound like a jerk but I don't care how much it costs for a jet to do a go around. And typically a pilot of a jet isn't paying the bills so I'm sure honestly they don't care either. It would be more they feel inconvenienced by it. And if the jet pilot is concerned about the cost then wouldn't it be worth doing everything they can to fit into the pattern to keep from doing a go around? Rather doing a ten mile call out and expecting traffic to adjust to them at an uncontrolled airport, get to short final and realize a cub wasn't moving out of the way and doing a go around?

I was in Bend this last weekend. Beautiful clear day with wind blowing 7 knots at 160. They have two schools there. They teach fixed and helicopters there.

Helicopters make left traffic for 16 and fixed wings make right for 16. There was easily four planes and two helicopters in the pattern the whole morning.

Everyone was using 16 obviously, but a jet taxied down to 34 then he called and lined up on 34 after a few minutes of the fixed wing planes either stopping their touch and goes or moved their pattern to accommodate the jet, the jet took off. 7WD's captain wasn't being a jerk on the radio saying get out of the way I'm coming through, but he sat there for a period of time burning fuel and the pattern planes did have to do some extra maneuvering because of what the jet was doing.

If fuel was that big of a deal he could of taken off on 16 easily 10-15 minutes sooner with two quick turns and been long gone and not moved any other pilots out of their standard pattern. And probably been a cool site for the other pilots watching the Falcon climb out. Maybe he had time to burn for his IFR release I'm not sure. But the pattern was disrupted for a period of time.

I will gladly give way to any airplane at any time if it means keeping me alive. And if that means letting a jet cut me off at some point then so be it. The only time I have an ego is when I'm making fun of a Cirrus:)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ShuRugal]

11 hours ago, BKlott said:

I might be inclined to write down the offender’s registration number, the date and time of the event along with the information of the other aircraft in the pattern which were forced to go around. Then I would consider filing a written report to the appropriate FSDO. My guess is that a letter or phone call from an FAA Inspector to the offender would be a highly effective way to get the message across.

Would do if I had seen it personal.  I was still ~2 miles out of the pattern when it happened, I just got to hear it.

[N201MKTurbo]

If a Jet asks nicely if he could cut in front of me I will always accommodate. If he tells me to get out of the way he can go #$%^ himself.