Diamond in the rough or money pit?

[Ptwob_gaona]

And I'm adding ADSB into the equation for sure. I'm too used to going where I want, IFR or VFR. Don't want equipment limiting me...dollars on the other hand, well, I'll keep working so those don't limit me too much


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, FlyWalt said:

And what is wrong with the paint job? If it is free of nicks then a good detail would save a lot of money.

nothing. I would wax and fly that thing.  Same with the interior. But radios are a big upcoming event as is the engine. Both will have to be dealt with by the next owner, unless he plans on flying it less than 300-500 hours during their ownership period. And lets face it, reaistically how long is a 40 year old engine going to run?

[Hank]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Believe it or not, a lot of people live and fly outside of Class B and C.

And many of us are happy doing so!

At least in 2½ years, ATL Approach will have a reason to always tell me "Remain clear of the Bravo" whether I am IFR or VFR, as they have been doing for the three+ years since I moved back down this way . . . . .

But other than visiting my mother-in-law, avoiding ADS-B-Required airspace won't be much of a challenge or a problem for me. Or for many others.

[TTaylor]

5 minutes ago, daver328 said:

http://lycoming.prpl.rs/content/cam-and-tappet-wear

One of the good reasons to have a few partners if you don't fly every few weeks.  Flying planes are happier airplanes. 

[rbridges]

2 hours ago, Ptwob_gaona said:

And I'm adding ADSB into the equation for sure. I'm too used to going where I want, IFR or VFR. Don't want equipment limiting me...dollars on the other hand, well, I'll keep working so those don't limit me too much


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I wouldn't make ADSB too much of a priority.  Although it's an expense, getting ADSB into your plane can be done for $2-3k plus install.  A GPS, autopilot, tank leak, corrosion, etc. will cost tons more.  

[jetdriven]

Just to give you an idea of the hellish cost of avionics, I just went through this. In fact, this airplane closely resembles mine, but we paid more,  the engine was ten years old and 1200hrs, we gambled and thought we could get some service from it. we lost on that deal.

we went back and forth for the better part of 4 years about a G430, but in the end, we kept rejecting that idea because it was obsolete and install cost is a high part of installing one. Flat rte repairs for the com flip button or the knob, or Garmin's eventual discontinuance of parts made spending 13-14K on a 430 a bad value. (6500$ for 430W, 3K for labor, 2K indicator, 1500 audio panel.).  530W similae, but 1500$ more.    We didnt go for it in 2011 and 2017 wasnt looking better, prices were the same. Nope.

The iFD540 was a strong contender, actually I preferred it.  I went and flew a friend's 201 that had one, and then went and powered up a friend's Cheyenne II and played with the installed GTN750, and the G530 right below it.  It took about 5 minutes to determine the GTN750 was it. The 650 has this horrible drag left-right interface for entering fixes, and NFW was that thing going in my panel.  Wentworth happened to have a GTN750 for 12,500$, which was twice the cost of a G430W but cheaper than a iFD540, and 4K more than a 530W.

Oh, but since everything else was obsolete, this was going to be fun. Both VOR indicators were obsolete, our KMA20 audio panel was giving us problems, the COM2 KX170B worked great but it wont fit in the LH side of the stack, another 700$ to "re-install" it on the RH side of the stack.  Now that and the transponder, also obsolete, fill up the RH stack so much we cant fit the Aera660.   And the autopilot will do little more than track "direct", which is has always done.

So, the SN3308 HSI. Garmin's offerings weren't available, or even forecast, and the King HSI is complicated and hellishly expensive to repair, and since then theyre gotten worse.  Aspen is a 12K unit, and it's old tech, its ten years old. We needed an extra hole for an engine monitor, since ours was flaking out.  an HSI was needed, and the Sandel seemed to be the only thing cheap.

GPSS and the 1C388-3 radio coupler enables the autopilot to fly radius turns and holding patterns.

the final straw that broke the camel's back, the GTX345r remote transponder. Wife and I got into several huge fights about this, she was wrong and still she wont admit it   Anyways, these things are 7K installed. the GTX335 for 3K deal wasnt even on the horizon.   weather and traffic on that huge screen is nice, you dont really need an ipad now.

I found a guy on eBay who was in the unfortunate position of owning a GTX345r that was the wrong type for his aircraft, and he couldnt return it. 5K plus sales tax is 5400$ here.  I got the transponder for 4600$. 5K now laid in, or 7K in 18mo.  Another couple huge fights.  I bought the transponder.

I'm used to flying glass cockpit jets, 747, 737Ng, stuff like that. Onboard weather radar, ARINC429 turn anticipation LNAV, HSI on glass, real stuff.  We're relocating to the east coast soon, and real IFR is going to a regularly occuring event.

Anyways, we went from this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

to this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to THIS:

 

 

Here's my old lady collecting yet another air race trophy. The airplane does seem a couple knots faster, the CG is further aft due to the lightened radios in the panel and more remote boxes on the rear shelf.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I even got into the soup on the way back from the avionics shop, shot some DME ARC approaches to an ILS and even collected my 500$ rebate. It was a non-event.

I removed all the radios and all the old wiring, installed the KG102 remote gyro, the KMT112 flux gate, KN62A DME, and all the wiring (bundle 2" in diameter) was brought to the front.

The avionics shop cut me a real deal on labor. 

NOTHING was bought new, it was all used. 

We sold everything that came out of the aircraft for market value, and applied the 500$ ADSB rebate too.

And when the dust settled, it was 35,500$.  Shocking... and this is just a mid level upgrade.

But we have a large screen current production GPS, slimline, modern COM/NAV 2, remote ADSB in-out transponder with wx/trafffic on screen,  HSI and GPSS roll steering. And I only had to rip the band-aid off once. This is counter to my usual methods...

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2017 by jetdriven

[carusoam]

Byron on the East Coast....hmmmmmm....

how Far East?

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

DCA. for a year, maybe for good. If I really want a big fine ranch with a 1/4 mile long driveway, and a diesel Dually, I would have to get a divorce.

[N6758N]

Flying around with no panel and wires dangling everywhere? Doesn't seem like something I would post on the internet...

[KSMooniac]

While 1-owner classic cars are highly desirable, I'm not sure it is the same with planes. This one might be a good deal, but as beat to death above, there is high potential for it to require big money once it starts getting used regularly. Cosmetics aren't my taste, but look like they're in good shape. If interested, just check for corrosion, take a test flight with the owner and see if everything works and if it flies true. You'd be buying a run-out engine and panel, and paying accordingly.

This is the type of plane that now has a good future with the new Dynon (and Garmin) stuff that should be available very soon. An 18 AMU Dynon kit plus a GPS/COM + installation would have a thoroughly modernized plane for 40 AMU or maybe less. Similar capability a few months ago would require twice that, or more.

If I were to buy it, I'd look for corrosion, then install an engine monitor and grab my iPad and go! (And be planning engine overhaul in the near term)

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[thinwing]

13 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

DCA. for a year, maybe for good. If I really want a big fine ranch with a 1/4 mile long driveway, and a diesel Dually, I would have to get a divorce.

I've done those...really expensive 

[Bob - S50]

6 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

If the engine checks out and there is no showstopping corrosion or other squaks then it comes down to avionics and how you intend to fly.  VFR avionics minus ADSB out are just fine to fly with for years and you still have 3 years to comply with ADSB out.

If you are going to fly IFR the installed avionics will work however, a new WASS GPS would make life much nicer.  JMHO

And we don't know where the OP lives.  There are huge parts of the country where ADS-B will not be required.  They just won't be able to fly above 10,000' or to class B or C airport areas.

[INA201]

Can't hurt to make a nice prebuy checklist starting with the most expensive items and just see if it makes the cut.  If the OP is available give him a call. He may be upfront and honest and go over where the weaknesses are in the aircraft,.

[Ptwob_gaona]

http://lycoming.prpl.rs/content/cam-and-tappet-wear

Sweet reference, thanks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 8/28/2017 at 1:19 PM, jetdriven said:

Just to give you an idea of the hellish cost of avionics, I just went through this. In fact, this airplane closely resembles mine, but we paid more,  the engine was ten years old and 1200hrs, we gambled and thought we could get some service from it. we lost on that deal.

we went back and forth for the better part of 4 years about a G430, but in the end, we kept rejecting that idea because it was obsolete and install cost is a high part of installing one. Flat rte repairs for the com flip button or the knob, or Garmin's eventual discontinuance of parts made spending 13-14K on a 430 a bad value. (6500$ for 430W, 3K for labor, 2K indicator, 1500 audio panel.).  530W similae, but 1500$ more.    We didnt go for it in 2011 and 2017 wasnt looking better, prices were the same. Nope.

The iFD540 was a strong contender, actually I preferred it.  I went and flew a friend's 201 that had one, and then went and powered up a friend's Cheyenne II and played with the installed GTN750, and the G530 right below it.  It took about 5 minutes to determine the GTN750 was it. The 650 has this horrible drag left-right interface for entering fixes, and NFW was that thing going in my panel.  Wentworth happened to have a GTN750 for 12,500$, which was twice the cost of a G430W but cheaper than a iFD540, and 4K more than a 530W.

Oh, but since everything else was obsolete, this was going to be fun. Both VOR indicators were obsolete, our KMA20 audio panel was giving us problems, the COM2 KX170B worked great but it wont fit in the LH side of the stack, another 700$ to "re-install" it on the RH side of the stack.  Now that and the transponder, also obsolete, fill up the RH stack so much we cant fit the Aera660.   And the autopilot will do little more than track "direct", which is has always done.

So, the SN3308 HSI. Garmin's offerings weren't available, or even forecast, and the King HSI is complicated and hellishly expensive to repair, and since then theyre gotten worse.  Aspen is a 12K unit, and it's old tech, its ten years old. We needed an extra hole for an engine monitor, since ours was flaking out.  an HSI was needed, and the Sandel seemed to be the only thing cheap.

GPSS and the 1C388-3 radio coupler enables the autopilot to fly radius turns and holding patterns.

the final straw that broke the camel's back, the GTX345r remote transponder. Wife and I got into several huge fights about this, she was wrong and still she wont admit it   Anyways, these things are 7K installed. the GTX335 for 3K deal wasnt even on the horizon.   weather and traffic on that huge screen is nice, you dont really need an ipad now.

I found a guy on eBay who was in the unfortunate position of owning a GTX345r that was the wrong type for his aircraft, and he couldnt return it. 5K plus sales tax is 5400$ here.  I got the transponder for 4600$. 5K now laid in, or 7K in 18mo.  Another couple huge fights.  I bought the transponder.

I'm used to flying glass cockpit jets, 747, 737Ng, stuff like that. Onboard weather radar, ARINC429 turn anticipation LNAV, HSI on glass, real stuff.  We're relocating to the east coast soon, and real IFR is going to a regularly occuring event.

Anyways, we went from this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

to this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to THIS:

 

 

Here's my old lady collecting yet another air race trophy. The airplane does seem a couple knots faster, the CG is further aft due to the lightened radios in the panel and more remote boxes on the rear shelf.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I even got into the soup on the way back from the avionics shop, shot some DME ARC approaches to an ILS and even collected my 500$ rebate. It was a non-event.

I removed all the radios and all the old wiring, installed the KG102 remote gyro, the KMT112 flux gate, KN62A DME, and all the wiring (bundle 2" in diameter) was brought to the front.

The avionics shop cut me a real deal on labor. 

NOTHING was bought new, it was all used. 

We sold everything that came out of the aircraft for market value, and applied the 500$ ADSB rebate too.

And when the dust settled, it was 35,500$.  Shocking... and this is just a mid level upgrade.

But we have a large screen current production GPS, slimline, modern COM/NAV 2, remote ADSB in-out transponder with wx/trafffic on screen,  HSI and GPSS roll steering. And I only had to rip the band-aid off once. This is counter to my usual methods...

 

 

 

 

Make up your mind. Are you buying a 911 and a new plane or fighting over 5 AMU's on a transponder?  If my degreed wife has two children with three degrees my basic math says four total. Is four more or less than three?

Yoke looks great. Would not change a thing. One of these things is not like the other...

[MyNameIsNobody]

I have long since come to terms that Rebecca is a much better looking and flying pilot than me. I hope she wins a bunch more brass. 

[jetdriven]

Yoke needs corrosion treated painted then wrapped in leather.  But there's 16 wires in that bundle that goes down the yoke shaft and it has to be cut to remove.  And someone has already cut it once and it's a fistful of butt connectors at the end of the shaft under the panel, which means it's al gotta be replaced. And it's soldered to everything on the yoke

Oh and I'm getting a 911. The kind with the oversized KK turbos on it. But there won't be a fight about getting one. Shell just come home and pop the garage door open and there will be plenty of Guards Red inside  in all its glory.

Edited August 30, 2017 by jetdriven

[MyNameIsNobody]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Yoke needs corrosion treated painted then wrapped in leather.  But there's 16 wires in that bundle that goes down the yoke shaft and it has to be cut to remove.  And someone has already cut it once and it's a fistful of butt connectors at the end of the shaft under the panel, which means it's al gotta be replaced. And it's soldered to everything on the yoke

Oh and I'm getting a 911. The kind with the oversized KK turbos on it. But there won't be a fight about getting one. Shell just come home and pop the garage door open and there will be plenty of Guards Red inside  in all its glory.

They are a great car. Put a tennis grip on the poor thing. It's like a Hannibal Lector victim 

[Ptwob_gaona]

I gotta ask about some acronyms. I'm usually pretty good deciphering but these few have me stumped.

AMU - its related to dollars or money I figure
OP - ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kpaul]

2 minutes ago, Ptwob_gaona said:

I gotta ask about some acronyms. I'm usually pretty good deciphering but these few have me stumped.

AMU - its related to dollars or money I figure
OP - ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

AMU = Aviation Monetary Unit = $1000

OP = Originating or Original Poster of the thread

[LANCECASPER]

On 8/29/2017 at 7:42 PM, jetdriven said:

Yoke needs corrosion treated painted then wrapped in leather.  But there's 16 wires in that bundle that goes down the yoke shaft and it has to be cut to remove.  And someone has already cut it once and it's a fistful of butt connectors at the end of the shaft under the panel, which means it's al gotta be replaced. And it's soldered to everything on the yoke

Funny you should mention yokes, I’m sitting at the avionics shop this morning having them re-pin all the wires going into my pilot side yoke. I changed out the Co-pilots side last week, but didn’t wanna tackle the tough side. It doesn’t look very good with mis-matched yokes.

[carusoam]

All the fancy stuff is in front of the co pilot Lance.

All the old traditional stuff is in front of the pilot.

Great photos!

Hmmmmm,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

I’m glad I didn't try this. Re-pinning is the way to go rather than splicing.

 

I'm hoping I don't have to fly home with Vise Grips.

 

The old switches fit fine on the new yokes.

 

All done - they charged three hours of labor but when I compare that to splicing wires and potential problems I think it was worth it. After a thorough pre-flight everything works and I flew home.l

 

 

 

[tigers2007]

I'll throw my two cents in as I'm a newer owner to the Mooney species. Buy one in decent running condition and be able to sell it in running condition. I don't know your financial position but I wouldn't dive into a project that has too many potential negative surprises. I paid less than $20k for mine yet I'm at least $35k over that now - and I bought mine in excellent running condition (though over TBO).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thinwing]

On 8/28/2017 at 11:19 AM, jetdriven said:

Just to give you an idea of the hellish cost of avionics, I just went through this. In fact, this airplane closely resembles mine, but we paid more,  the engine was ten years old and 1200hrs, we gambled and thought we could get some service from it. we lost on that deal.

we went back and forth for the better part of 4 years about a G430, but in the end, we kept rejecting that idea because it was obsolete and install cost is a high part of installing one. Flat rte repairs for the com flip button or the knob, or Garmin's eventual discontinuance of parts made spending 13-14K on a 430 a bad value. (6500$ for 430W, 3K for labor, 2K indicator, 1500 audio panel.).  530W similae, but 1500$ more.    We didnt go for it in 2011 and 2017 wasnt looking better, prices were the same. Nope.

The iFD540 was a strong contender, actually I preferred it.  I went and flew a friend's 201 that had one, and then went and powered up a friend's Cheyenne II and played with the installed GTN750, and the G530 right below it.  It took about 5 minutes to determine the GTN750 was it. The 650 has this horrible drag left-right interface for entering fixes, and NFW was that thing going in my panel.  Wentworth happened to have a GTN750 for 12,500$, which was twice the cost of a G430W but cheaper than a iFD540, and 4K more than a 530W.

Oh, but since everything else was obsolete, this was going to be fun. Both VOR indicators were obsolete, our KMA20 audio panel was giving us problems, the COM2 KX170B worked great but it wont fit in the LH side of the stack, another 700$ to "re-install" it on the RH side of the stack.  Now that and the transponder, also obsolete, fill up the RH stack so much we cant fit the Aera660.   And the autopilot will do little more than track "direct", which is has always done.

So, the SN3308 HSI. Garmin's offerings weren't available, or even forecast, and the King HSI is complicated and hellishly expensive to repair, and since then theyre gotten worse.  Aspen is a 12K unit, and it's old tech, its ten years old. We needed an extra hole for an engine monitor, since ours was flaking out.  an HSI was needed, and the Sandel seemed to be the only thing cheap.

GPSS and the 1C388-3 radio coupler enables the autopilot to fly radius turns and holding patterns.

the final straw that broke the camel's back, the GTX345r remote transponder. Wife and I got into several huge fights about this, she was wrong and still she wont admit it   Anyways, these things are 7K installed. the GTX335 for 3K deal wasnt even on the horizon.   weather and traffic on that huge screen is nice, you dont really need an ipad now.

I found a guy on eBay who was in the unfortunate position of owning a GTX345r that was the wrong type for his aircraft, and he couldnt return it. 5K plus sales tax is 5400$ here.  I got the transponder for 4600$. 5K now laid in, or 7K in 18mo.  Another couple huge fights.  I bought the transponder.

I'm used to flying glass cockpit jets, 747, 737Ng, stuff like that. Onboard weather radar, ARINC429 turn anticipation LNAV, HSI on glass, real stuff.  We're relocating to the east coast soon, and real IFR is going to a regularly occuring event.

Anyways, we went from this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

to this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to THIS:

 

 

Here's my old lady collecting yet another air race trophy. The airplane does seem a couple knots faster, the CG is further aft due to the lightened radios in the panel and more remote boxes on the rear shelf.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I even got into the soup on the way back from the avionics shop, shot some DME ARC approaches to an ILS and even collected my 500$ rebate. It was a non-event.

I removed all the radios and all the old wiring, installed the KG102 remote gyro, the KMT112 flux gate, KN62A DME, and all the wiring (bundle 2" in diameter) was brought to the front.

The avionics shop cut me a real deal on labor. 

NOTHING was bought new, it was all used. 

We sold everything that came out of the aircraft for market value, and applied the 500$ ADSB rebate too.

And when the dust settled, it was 35,500$.  Shocking... and this is just a mid level upgrade.

But we have a large screen current production GPS, slimline, modern COM/NAV 2, remote ADSB in-out transponder with wx/trafffic on screen,  HSI and GPSS roll steering. And I only had to rip the band-aid off once. This is counter to my usual methods...

 

 

 

 

She is holding a big bullet to shoot you with!