All steam gauge vs glass - weight?

[The Other Red Baron]

Does either one save on weight more than the other?  I've been googling and no one seems to jump out and say "Look at how much lighter my all-glass cockpit is!" or even the opposite.

[carusoam]

Each plane may be different.  Some things to consider...

Steam gauge instruments are very light to begin with.  So, if you are just tossing them out it won't be many pounds...

Some of the back-up systems like an electric motor and spare vac pump and the mounting system for it can weigh a few pounds.  These are often in the back of the plane next to a stack of lead Charlie weights.  Tossing the spare vac system, earns more Charlie weights...

Tossing an old vac tube radio for a new digital GTN might go in the right direction for you.  Adding a modern AP, you get three or four electric motors to add to the weight

To get a feeling for the weight of each radio and display, find a modern POH.  The weight of each device and it's location is clearly detailed in the weight and balance section.

If you don't have a POH, there are a couple listed in the documents section around here...

Cleaning out all of the accumulated dirt is a good idea.  Taking out tens of pounds of old wiring can be good too...

To get a feeling for an all glass panel, they are similar to laptop computers in weight and power.

PP thoughts only not a CFI or mechanic or instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 15, 2017 by carusoam

[Bob_Belville]

If it is any help to you my panel changes in 2012 reduced empty weight by 20 pounds.  

[The Other Red Baron]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

If it is any help to you my panel changes in 2012 reduced empty weight by 20 pounds.  

 

And you still have some of the old gauges.  That's actually more impressive than I was guessing.  Would you have any guess how many pounds you could shave off if you ripped out your whole vac system? Would that even be allowed on a Mooney since it is a certified aircraft? 

[carusoam]

More technical detail + less weight = most happy pilot.

Only draw backs  are the time and money...

some of the highly updated Mooney panels around here...

1) Urs Wildermuth's C

2) Bob's E

3) Marauder's F

4) Don's M

5) Steven's R

6) Craig's old J

7) Anyone with a Waas + G1000

8) Rocket's K/252 (in the works)

Need some ideas?  A couple of these panels have gone all electric.  To do this requires studying what can legally back-up the primary system that you select.  It isn't obvious or even sensible.  It is just what has been documented technically with the FAA...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 15, 2017 by carusoam

[The Other Red Baron]

I need lots of ideas, but more importantly I need a plane still.    When I'm plane shopping the #1 thought in my head lately is "Do I pay more for something with glass already in it or do I buy something cheaper with mostly steam gauges and choose what glass I want?"  And then I start thinking about weight savings during those potential upgrades, etc.

[bradp]

Unless you are married to a particular brand / config let someone else pay for the avionics work and sink the savings into other budgetary items and upgrades.  

Unless, of course, this will be your ultimate (I.e last) airplane.  Then have at it.  

[Godfather]

You will spend twice the price doing it yourself. I'm in the process of getting prices on a single Aspen and L3 500...low to mid 20's...

[jetdriven]

Shop for a used wx-500 there around 3500$ for a good one. That and the aspen you're 16-18k laid in. 

Avionics are expensive and the radios are about to get worse.  Nothing new on the horizon and the existing stuf isn't getting cheaper. Fwiw a gtn-750, Pma-8000bt, sl30, dac31 gpss and a sandel sn3308 (all used stuff, nothing new, and the owner contributing about a third of the install labor, is still over 31k.  New "call me when it's ready" prices would probably be 40k. Idk but it's bad. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by jetdriven

[gsxrpilot]

12 minutes ago, Godfather said:

You will spend twice the price doing it yourself. I'm in the process of getting prices on a single Aspen and L3 500...low to mid 20's...

With vintage Mooneys, C, E, F, etc. I think it's between $3 or $4 to $1. 

[gsxrpilot]

29 minutes ago, carusoam said:

More technical detail + less weight = most happy pilot.

Only draw backs  are the time and money...

some of the highly updated Mooney panels around here...

1) Urs Wildermuth's C

2) Bob's E

3) Marauder's F

4) Don's M

5) Steven's R

6) Craig's old J

7) Anyone with a Waas + G1000

Need some ideas?  A couple of these panels have gone all electric.  To do this requires studying what can legally back-up the primary system that you select.  It isn't obvious or even sensible.  It is just what has been documented technically with the FAA...

Best regards,

-a-

I hope to add my K to the list sometime before summer.

[carusoam]

So many Ks came fully instrumented.  This makes it extra challenging to pull out stuff that works to replace with the newest technology.

A worthy goal, just extra challenging.

I'm going to edit that post and put Rocket's M20K/252 in there.  

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, revwatch said:

 

And you still have some of the old gauges.  That's actually more impressive than I was guessing.  Would you have any guess how many pounds you could shave off if you ripped out your whole vac system? Would that even be allowed on a Mooney since it is a certified aircraft? 

I wouldn't pull the vacuum system even though only the AI is vacuum. My old E has a vacuum operated retracting step which I much prefer to a fixed anchor. We did remove a Precise Flight vacuum backup system @ 2.4 #. A vacuum pump is very little weight.

[donkaye]

I read this thread with some amusement.  I have been fortunate enough to have flown the fully glass panels of today's upgrades and G1000s of olden days, and the all steam gauges of another millennium.  The weight discussion is irrelevant.  I maybe picked up 10 pound of useful load on my upgrade, but the capability improved in ways that, well, you'd have to fly to appreciate.

For example, this past weekend I did a transition training in a very well equipped Bravo.  It had a 530 and 430 and Sandel 3500.  It came off the line with the B/K 225 autopilot.  The Sandel is an advanced EFIS 40.  The plane has not been upgraded to ADS-B.  The beginning of the training comprised of a trip from KSLC to KIDA.  The end of the training, the reverse.  The lack of an air data computer, traffic and a large screen with both terrain and SVT for someone who has been used it for the past 3 years, especially in a Class B area like Salt Lake City, was really noticeable.

If you can afford Glass, get it.  The weight penalty, if any, is negligible.  The safety benefit far outweighs any other consideration in my opinion.

 

[Bob_Belville]

8 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Shop for a used wx-500 there around 3500$ for a good one. That and the aspen you're 16-18k laid in. 

 

I like my stand alone WX-900 which will cost a good bit less on the used market than a WX-500.

Of course I have plenty of panel space. If I had needed more space the GTN 750 would have allowed me to remote the audio panel and the xponder as well as the Stormscope but each would have cost more and made the GTN reliability more critical. Moreover, it's usually simpler to tune those boxes as independent displays. The xponder flight timer is my go to timer. I can clear the Stormscope without messing with the GTN display which might be on the "waypoint" pages checking destination info or on the "traffic" page. Likewise the a-panel buttons to monitor AWOS can be switched w/o leaving my current GTN page.

[Marauder]

I think my weight loss came in around 14 pounds from the all steam to the all glass (including removing the vacuum system).





I'll echo Don's comments about the awareness and productivity gains of an all glass panel. Using an iPad is fine and offers a lot more than that Garmin 295 I had in the "before" photo above. The integration of everything is where the power of an all glass panel exists. Until you have a chance to spend some quality time behind one, the value may not seem evident.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

My Ovation gained 19.03 pounds of useful load in 2012 with the switch to glass (no fooling, the shop computed the UL to 0.01 pound resolution). 

It was not done to gain Useful Load.   The UL gain was a pleasant by-product of the gain in utility.

Removed

• Engine Driven Vac pump
• Back up electric driven Vacuum pump system
• KCS-55A, KI-256, GI-106, KEA-130A, VSI, T&B, ASI

Added

• G500 suite:  GDU630, GDS77, GDC74S, GAD43, GMU44
• Trilogy ESI-2000

 

DURING: 

 

AFTER:

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

My panel overhaul is being done specifically for UL gains. I'll be sure to report back if the avionics shop is ever finished with it.

[BobAustin]

Paul, Where are u having the work done ?

Bob

[gsxrpilot]

12 minutes ago, BobAustin said:

Paul, Where are u having the work done ?

Bob

Crystal Avionics in New Braunfels.  The delay is really not due to the avionics shop but rather just a few different little things, but each seems to insert a week into the process.

I'm confident my panel will be in the same class as @Marauder and @Bob_Belville when it's done.

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm confident my panel will be in the same class as @Marauder and @Bob_Belville when it's done.

All it takes is money, welcome to our little club.

[Rmag]

I got a 39.31 lb UL increase going from this:

To this:

Here is a box of wire that was pulled out:

And the removals and additions math:

[donkaye]

Just now, Rmag said:

I got a 39.31 lb UL increase going from this:

 

To this:

 

Here is a box of wire that was pulled out:

And the removals and additions math:

I wanted an accurate weight and balance after my upgrade.  Instead of all those pages shown above, I just had my airplane reweighed.  It wasn't that expensive.

[Rmag]

We calculated that to have a record of removals and additions but then we actually weighed it after the paint and interior was done. I lost some UL on the paint and interior but it was still an overall net UL gain  

[Marauder]

All it takes is money, welcome to our little club.

AND TIME!!!!


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