Bendix/King --- Are you kidding???

[carqwik]

Just came back from walking the dogs...to clear my head after reading the initial post and responding.

Two thoughts...either this is a bad nightmare or it is a real life nightmare (eventually for many).  If it's the former, then it's a story someone concocted and it spread virally...classic fake news.  (I can't find any stories on this so perhaps it's fake news?)  If it's the latter, then I see all the "alphabet" groups getting together and seeking an emergency injunction.  Unfortunately, it's still bad in the long run. 

[donkaye]

This reminds me of the problem with the Plessey Actuator back spring.  They quit making them.  I was so worried about that that I spent a lot of money buying a rebuilt non Plessey gear actuator from Top Gun last year.  It's a little harder buying a non BK autopilot and, no, I don't want an S-Tec rate based AP.

[donkaye]

Just now, carqwik said:

Just came back from walking the dogs...to clear my head after reading the initial post and responding.

Two thoughts...either this is a bad nightmare or it is a real life nightmare (eventually for many).  If it's the former, then it's a story someone concocted and it spread virally...classic fake news.  (I can't find any stories on this so perhaps it's fake news?)  If it's the latter, then I see all the "alphabet" groups getting together and seeking an emergency injunction.  Unfortunately, it's still bad in the long run. 

It is NOT fake news.  My avionics shop told me about it and the letter to Dealers before I read the thread on Beechtalk and started one here.

[carqwik]

Well I was hoping it was "fake" news.  Thanks Don.

[PTK]

On 5/5/2017 at 10:03 PM, donkaye said:

I was in talking to my Avionics shop today and was informed that as of July 1st ALL MANUALS ARE TO BE DISTROYED, ALL PARTS ARE TO BE RETURNED, AND NO WORK ON BK PRODUCTS CAN BE DONE OUTSIDE THE FACTORY.  Only the factory will be allowed to do ANY repairs to BK products.

I updated my panel when my EFIS 40 failed and BK wanted in the neighborhood of $!7,000 to fix it.  The value of BK products just took a nosedive with this ridiculous act.

All of us with BK Autopilots are in trouble.  If any servo goes out, back to BK.  If any AP computer goes out, back to BK.  Better save up for those repairs because they are going to rip us off.

Hopefully, there will be new choices for autopilots on the market soon so we can trash the BK autopilots and tell them where they can go....

PS  How are we going to get our APs aligned with no manuals or permission to even to it?

Why some are getting bent out of shape over this I don't understand. I think it may be a good thing to have a BK piece of avionics sent to the factory. I don't know the details but assuming it gets overhauled and sent back with a warranty.

This is nothing different than what Garmin does. It goes back to Garmin, they overhaul it to new specs and send it back with a warranty. 

This can be a good thing especially with BK boxes that, lets face it, are no spring chickens. 

[PTK]

On 5/5/2017 at 11:26 PM, KSMooniac said:

BK can release a new update to their manuals, and not distribute them. That would effectively make repair work illegal, and a repair station can do nothing about it without risking loss of their certificates.

If we're lucky there might be some independent techs that might be willing to repair stuff hangar-fairy style, but I wouldn't count on it.

I think this move signals BK's surrender of the GA market because it will trigger replacement of radios vs repairs. Maybe they can get by extorting A/P owners, but soon we'll have options there too.

It also devalues planes with their equipment IMO.

And as already mentioned, it is a total dick move just like it was when Narco did it. We all know how well it worked for them.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 

I don't think this is analogous to Narco for the simple reason that we are not necessarily interested in radios and indicators. We're mostly interested in our King autopilots for which there is no replacement. It can be a very good thing for aircraft owners to have BK factory overhaul and warranty their autopilot. 

[Guest]

Why all the moaning and pissing?  Bendix-King is just arriving late to the party.  

Ask your favourite avionics shop to repair your Garmin, Avidyne, Aspen etc.. sorry we can't it has to go back to the manufacturer.

Clarence 

 

[Godfather]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Why some are getting bent out of shape over this I don't understand. I think it may be a good thing to have a BK piece of avionics sent to the factory. I don't know the details but assuming it gets overhauled and sent back with a warranty.

This is nothing different than what Garmin does. It goes back to Garmin, they overhaul it to new specs and send it back with a warranty. 

This can be a good thing especially with BK boxes that, lets face it, are no spring chickens. 

Don't agree because I have lost trust in the company. I truly believe if my 225 AP was sent in for any type of internal problem it would come back with a 10k bill attached to it.  They charged me over 2k just to bench test it a few years ago...would probably cost over 3k to have them do it now. 

You will now pay 5k to fix any problem with your 256 or 525. They will force an overhaul and that is the current price schedule. 

Im actually planning on buying a spare overhauled pitch servo before July as they only last 1k-2k hrs. Why? Because I know the price will increase from 1.8 amu to 4+amu...they might demand the computer be sent in at the same time would could increase the price to 7amu...

Now if they had a industry standard flat rate fee for repairs that was reasonable I would have no problem with this.

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, donkaye said:

This reminds me of the problem with the Plessey Actuator back spring.  They quit making them.  I was so worried about that that I spent a lot of money buying a rebuilt non Plessey gear actuator from Top Gun last year.  It's a little harder buying a non BK autopilot and, no, I don't want an S-Tec rate based AP.

So the worry here is that BK will demand extortion level pricing.  $2500 to overhaul a gyro is one thing, but what if suddenly under factory service, overnight the price jumps to $6000 or some such, for that factory service label?  Similarly for all the other parts in the AP.

I am sorry but I forget the real numbers, so I am only stating the numbers as I roughly remember them, but about 2 years ago my autopilot electric trim switch went bad - the one on the yoke - and needed to be replaced.   I was told that just a few years ago it was ~$500 (remember we are talking about a switch, and a few electronics elements that go in the switch body) but it had been raised to about $1k, but then it was doubled again to $2k.  So I called around and was able to find one last unit on an MSC shelf as new old-stock at the $1k price.  (again folks these are rough numbers since I am not remembering exactly).  So this is what I fear will be the philosophy and practice of BK.  This is not then the same as Garmin managing all of their own overhauls, but rather the behavior of a company that is leveraging their monopoly based on faa legislation to extort us and put other companies out of business (the mid continent and autopilot central's of the world).

So, Don, let me ask this directly to you since I know what your panel looks like and you seem to be someone who has invested in the best of the best for your panel as much as any Mooney owner out there.  I agree I also am not excited by the STEC - they are not as good an autopilot as the best of the BK's - like the KFC200 that I have, and also that company is also on shaky ground.

So let me ask, what would you consider replacing your BK with, and what would cause you to replace it?

Or rather let me ask does this sound reasonable if I say what i am thinking - if asked to overhaul some major component at $6k or more, then it is time to just replace the whole system if it is available.  If trutrek or trio are available at that time, then these would be excellent and worthy replacements that compete with the KFC200 in terms of features - and even better - I am really excited about the envelope protection. I was talking to an avionics shop and he guestimated that the all-in installed cost of either of those would be roughly 10k.

OR - I am guessing that Garmin is also working behind the scenes to certify something from their experimental line-up mirroring what trutrek and trio are doing.  And that will be announced at Oshkosh 17.  Just like Dynon did their efis and next thing you know, Garmin announced their G5.  I would be very very tempted already by a full featured digital autopilot by Garmin, but now doubly so given that BK is in the middle of jumping off a bridge.   

In business terms, any of those three companies giving experimental to certified autopilots would have a huge boondoggle of sales if this BK thing really does go down this road they are threatening, because if nothing else, they are threatening to price overhaul of single components at a large fraction of the cost of their new systems complete.  Likewise Aspen.

[Godfather]

I really like the 225 AP. The only system that compares is the Garmin 700. I want to continue using this AP for the duration. I would have no problem with with a factory program that is within reason (let's say 50% higher vs repair station). I foresee 2x or 3x the prices in the near future. 

[donkaye]

31 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

So, Don, let me ask this directly to you since I know what your panel looks like and you seem to be someone who has invested in the best of the best for your panel as much as any Mooney owner out there.  I agree I also am not excited by the STEC - they are not as good an autopilot as the best of the BK's - like the KFC200 that I have, and also that company is also on shaky ground.

So let me ask, what would you consider replacing your BK with, and what would cause you to replace it?

Or rather let me ask does this sound reasonable if I say what i am thinking - if asked to overhaul some major component at $6k or more, then it is time to just replace the whole system if it is available.  If trutrek or trio are available at that time, then these would be excellent and worthy replacements that compete with the KFC200 in terms of features - and even better - I am really excited about the envelope protection. I was talking to an avionics shop and he guestimated that the all-in installed cost of either of those would be roughly 10k.

I loved my KLN90B, so delayed any GPS upgrade because I thought is was so capable.  So I skipped the GNS 530/430 generation.  It was only after a major interconnected system component failed and the exorbitant price that Bendix/King wanted that I went all in with my complete panel upgrade.  I was lucky that technology waited to change so dramatically until I needed it.  Even now, 3 years later, there is no newer technology that would cause me to change my panel.  I really feel fortunate that the only thing King in my panel is the KN63 DME and the KFC 150 autopilot.  Although I'm glad I kept the DME, if it went out, at BKs repair prices, I would remove it as inconsequential.  With regards to the KFC 150 autopilot, I spent over 5K on it a couple of years ago at AP Central.  That included a replacement Pitch Servo.  Can you imagine what BK will charge!?  So, I will keep it as long as it works, and, like my total upgrade, hope a new AP will become available on the market before I need a repair on mine.  I would prefer it be from Garmin, since I'm sure it would more likely interface with all their equipment, and their GFC 700 is the best small GA digital AP out there, so it would probably piggyback off of it.

Actually the KFC 150 does have a pseudo envelope protection not touted much.  If you just press FD, ALT, AP, the wings will roll level at least at any bank angle to the 60° I have tested and at the altitude pressed.  It's better than nothing.

[aviatoreb]

Here are other features I want in a latest-and-greatest autopilot, that would cause me to upgrade autopilots whether or not BK is trying to extort me (and attitude based):

-digital 

-envelope protection

-upset recovery button

-autoland.

The first 3 have become standard fare in the latest autopilots.  BTW - the avidyne DFC90 is also a maybe - I wish they had done an STC for us - and maybe they still will.  I would buy that.

Auto land does not exist in GA yet - but the technology is completely feasible.  Diamond is testing it as a possible future feature, in their DA42 and 62 I think.  for real - and to be released sometime "in the near future".  Not to be used as a standard every day feature but as an emergency feature to compete with the parachute - for the scenario of a pilot incapacitation.

That scenario is suddenly back in my mind - and of my wife!  There was an airplane crash near here just 3 nights ago.  A cargo plane from Northern Quebec was flying to Montreal and overflew Montreal and then crossed the border and then crashed right near here - a Piper Navajo.  Seemingly a pilot medical issue (only soul on board) flying on autopilot the airplane carried on until it ran out of fuel.

 

[Marauder]

So the worry here is that BK will demand extortion level pricing.  $2500 to overhaul a gyro is one thing, but what if suddenly under factory service, overnight the price jumps to $6000 or some such, for that factory service label?  Similarly for all the other parts in the AP.
I am sorry but I forget the real numbers, so I am only stating the numbers as I roughly remember them, but about 2 years ago my autopilot electric trim switch went bad - the one on the yoke - and needed to be replaced.   I was told that just a few years ago it was ~$500 (remember we are talking about a switch, and a few electronics elements that go in the switch body) but it had been raised to about $1k, but then it was doubled again to $2k.  So I called around and was able to find one last unit on an MSC shelf as new old-stock at the $1k price.  (again folks these are rough numbers since I am not remembering exactly).  So this is what I fear will be the philosophy and practice of BK.  This is not then the same as Garmin managing all of their own overhauls, but rather the behavior of a company that is leveraging their monopoly based on faa legislation to extort us and put other companies out of business (the mid continent and autopilot central's of the world).
So, Don, let me ask this directly to you since I know what your panel looks like and you seem to be someone who has invested in the best of the best for your panel as much as any Mooney owner out there.  I agree I also am not excited by the STEC - they are not as good an autopilot as the best of the BK's - like the KFC200 that I have, and also that company is also on shaky ground.
So let me ask, what would you consider replacing your BK with, and what would cause you to replace it?
Or rather let me ask does this sound reasonable if I say what i am thinking - if asked to overhaul some major component at $6k or more, then it is time to just replace the whole system if it is available.  If trutrek or trio are available at that time, then these would be excellent and worthy replacements that compete with the KFC200 in terms of features - and even better - I am really excited about the envelope protection. I was talking to an avionics shop and he guestimated that the all-in installed cost of either of those would be roughly 10k.
OR - I am guessing that Garmin is also working behind the scenes to certify something from their experimental line-up mirroring what trutrek and trio are doing.  And that will be announced at Oshkosh 17.  Just like Dynon did their efis and next thing you know, Garmin announced their G5.  I would be very very tempted already by a full featured digital autopilot by Garmin, but now doubly so given that BK is in the middle of jumping off a bridge.   
In business terms, any of those three companies giving experimental to certified autopilots would have a huge boondoggle of sales if this BK thing really does go down this road they are threatening, because if nothing else, they are threatening to price overhaul of single components at a large fraction of the cost of their new systems complete.  Likewise Aspen.

I really like the 225 AP. The only system that compares is the Garmin 700. I want to continue using this AP for the duration. I would have no problem with with a factory program that is within reason (let's say 50% higher vs repair station). I foresee 2x or 3x the prices in the near future. 

Where this is going to play out is in the avionics shops. What killed Narco was not being able to compete in the GPS market. They elected to pull back repairs to supplement their lagging NAV/COM sales with support revenues. This cut out the bench repairs at the avionics shops and in return, the avionics shops stopped recommending Narco.

For the latest technologies, the reason the manufacturers have been able to implement a "return to manufacturer" strategy has more to do with the technology change from through hole to surface mount board technologies than anything else. If Garmin, Avidyne and the others don't sell board level replacement parts, then the only viable option is to return the box. Which is the repair strategy they implemented. I know a lot about this strategy since I set this business model up for a Fortune 50 company.

Where this BK decision is going to play out is for the legacy technologies that can still be field repairable and where it may require diagnostic capabilities (ex. Is it the roll computer or the servo causing the issue?).

Personally, I think the majority of avionics shops will be fine with this. They will still get paid for the warranty work they do and will still charge us for trade work outside of the warranty period for the diagnostic and box swapping they will perform. In addition, every shop I visited for my recent upgrade is focusing on new installations and ADS-B upgrades. Not having to bench test and repair a busted box allows them to concentrate on the bigger margin installations.

Where this decision may impact a business is a place like Autopilots Central. I suspect they are doing a lot of their own bench testing and repairs.


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[aviatoreb]

20 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I loved my KLN90B, so delayed any GPS upgrade because I thought is was so capable.  So I skipped the GNS 530/430 generation.  It was only after a major interconnected system component failed and the exorbitant price that Bendix/King wanted that I went all in with my complete panel upgrade.  I was lucky that technology waited to change so dramatically until I needed it.  Even now, 3 years later, there is no newer technology that would cause me to change my panel.  I really feel fortunate that the only thing King in my panel is the KN63 DME and the KFC 150 autopilot.  Although I'm glad I kept the DME, if it went out, at BKs repair prices, I would remove it as inconsequential.  With regards to the KFC 150 autopilot, I spent over 5K on it a couple of years ago at AP Central.  That included a replacement Pitch Servo.  Can you imagine what BK will charge!?  So, I will keep it as long as it works, and, like my total upgrade, hope a new AP will become available on the market before I need a repair on mine.  I would prefer it be from Garmin, since I'm sure it would more likely interface with all their equipment, and their GFC 700 is the best small GA digital AP out there, so it would probably piggyback off of it.

Actually the KFC 150 does have a pseudo envelope protection not touted much.  If you just press FD, ALT, AP, the wings will roll level at least at any bank angle to the 60° I have tested and at the altitude pressed.  It's better than nothing.

Huh - will that work on the KFC200?

But that is not what is meant by envelope protection - I mean an ap feature where if you are approaching a condition near the flight envelope that the AP servos nudge the control yoke back toward controlled flight, just as if there were a master CFI sitting next to you.

On the other point - that  is what I worry about - that BK will charge 2 or 3 times (or more) what autopilot central would charge for a repair.  Why would they do that?  A) they think they could make lots of money especially after putting their competitors out of business, or B they do not really want to be in the GA business anymore since the have bigger fish to fry - military contracts, so it is their way of chasing us off but they will still take our money if we are dumb enough to keep going to them.

[Bennett]

I had a pitch servo failure about a year ago (BK KAP 150), and the very capable local avionics shop I use was not able to repair it. It was sent back to BK (Honeywell) for overhaul, and they sent it back because they couldn't read the serial number! We finally found the original Mooney factory installation documents that showed the serial number and again sent it back to BK. Weeks passed, and after many calls, the returned pitch servo arrived, bench tested, and installed. I don't recall the price, but I do recall being shocked at the cost. Anyway my test flight scared the xxxx out of me. The feedback loops were wild, and in the wrong direction, and after pulling the AP breaker, and all switches, I got the airplane under control and landed safely. The pitch servo was sent back to Honeywell again, and they finally admitted (after many phone calls from my avionics shop) that they had incorrectly wired the rebuilt unit. They ultimately sent me a brand new pitch servo at the overhauled price, but by now several months of non-use of my Mooney had passed. Works fine now, but I shutter to think what would happen if any of the BK components fail in the near future.

 

I have had excellent experience with the TruTrak autopilot I had installed in my former DOVA LSA. Did everything the KAP 150 does, and I didn't need the SAM Icarus converter for GPSS steering as it was all digital. The servos were inexpensive and very responsive to the autopilot. I also had the full Dynon SkyView glass screens which also worked perfectly. My current Mooney is mostly Garmin, except for the vacuum AI and the KAP 150 autopilot. If Garmin had a replacement AI that would drive a Garmin autopilot I would switch in an instant

 

 

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[donkaye]

19 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Huh - will that work on the KFC200?

But that is not what is meant by envelope protection - I mean an ap feature where if you are approaching a condition near the flight envelope that the AP servos nudge the control yoke back toward controlled flight, just as if there were a master CFI sitting next to you.

Understood.  Which is why  I used the word "pseudo".  Probably better to have said pseudo upset protection.

[Aerodon]

20 hours ago, PTK said:

Well, aren't other manufacturers doing the same thing? Doesn't Garmin for example require us to send their equipment back to them through a dealer for factory repairs?

Except that BK chose the dealer service model many years ago, required the service centres to buy spares inventory and ridiculously priced breakout boxes, test harnesses, manuals etc.  There might me something in their dealer agreement that allows termination.

I suspect its more a way of terminating liability - I'm sure BK gets added to lawsuits all the time because their instruments were in planes that crashed.  Now, you send stuff back, if its very old it gets red tag and destroyed, and you get to pay for the privilege.  I had the experience with a KX165A, and it put me off ever buying a BK product again.

Apollo GX50/55/60 displays fail and there is no stock.  I contacted the OEM (of the display) and its $100k to tool up again for the same display and $100 per unit.  So buy 1000 units, its only $200 each.  Feasible for a large company to carry on supporting, but the bottom line is they've moved on and want you to move on.  The guy I was discussing the display with just treated it like another computer display - why don't you just go buy a new computer?  He did not understand that their $100 display went into a $3-5k GPS/Com, which cost another $3k to install, and would now cost $12k to replace.  

And in some cases its not all bad to replace an old GX50 with a GTN650/750 - you get a whole lot of new features and add at least a portion of that back to the plane value.  Its my KFC200 autopilot I am most concerned about - at least it is compatible with aG500, so I don't need to worry about the KI525 and KI256 anymore.  But what do you do when the processor goes bad?  At least now Autopilots Central can try fix it for you, or replace with a serviceable unit for a semi reasonable price.  What are they going to be able to do after July?  I am not holding my breath for reasonable prices from Honeywell.

Time to stock up on a replacement AP computer and servos for future 'self support'.  The alignment still needs to be done in the field, but hopefully that is still allowed?

 

Aerodon

 

[carusoam]

My KAP150 had to go back to BK to get a light bulb fixed...

The one button that keeps the wings level went out.  AP.

My electronics pro can install an entire Garmin G500/GTN750/G whatever...

but, to swap out a bulb hiding behind a switch, send it out to BK.

The KAP150 has..

-one button to hold wings level.

-one button to maintain altitude.

-one button to follow a heading.

-one knob to twist to select the heading.

That's a lot of buttons for a non-pilot... if they got it down to the single blue phd button, the success rate would be higher.

It does require the light bulbs to be working.  

Best regards,

-a-

[Rustler]

Just received this from an avionics-dealer friend of mine.

Honeywell and BK are listening.  There is better info coming out at the end of the week.  I just spoke with (my rep).

People need to calm down some. 

Interesting. Wonder what some means. We'll see.

[carusoam]

So Honeywell and BK know we are waiting on their word...

Just can't give us a hint to what is coming...

People don't calm down when their plane is not flying because an instrument has broken down...

Some people in aviation don't have a feeling for customer service.

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

On 5/7/2017 at 7:17 AM, PTK said:

Why some are getting bent out of shape over this I don't understand. I think it may be a good thing to have a BK piece of avionics sent to the factory. I don't know the details but assuming it gets overhauled and sent back with a warranty.

This is nothing different than what Garmin does. It goes back to Garmin, they overhaul it to new specs and send it back with a warranty. 

This can be a good thing especially with BK boxes that, lets face it, are no spring chickens. 

Spoken like somebody that has never dealt with BK technical support. There is a big difference between Garmin quoting you a fair price and returning the unit on time, working, with warranty vs BK accepting the unit, fucking around for 2 months, quoting you a price of $55K to fix a 4" CRT screen while at the same time refusing to provide a timeline or any sort of warranty. Yeah, that's BK for you. The issue is that that are spring chickens. There is not a single person at BK who even remotely knows what they are doing. All experienced personal either retired, died or went to work for Garmin. What's left is a barebones operation incapable of certifying a single new product on their own for last 20 years. I would never in my wildest dream fly behind an autopilot servo serviced by BK after my experience with them maintaining the EFIS 40 and the KFC325 autopilot. Glad I wasn't the one paying the bills. How about $15K for a pitch trim servo? And another two months turn around time. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[AndyFromCB]

On 5/7/2017 at 7:17 AM, PTK said:

Why some are getting bent out of shape over this I don't understand. I think it may be a good thing to have a BK piece of avionics sent to the factory. I don't know the details but assuming it gets overhauled and sent back with a warranty.

This is nothing different than what Garmin does. It goes back to Garmin, they overhaul it to new specs and send it back with a warranty. 

This can be a good thing especially with BK boxes that, lets face it, are no spring chickens. 

Here you go, how about reading this from another fellow named Peter, granted, considerably more knowledgeable on aviation topics:

http://peter2000.co.uk/aviation/kfc225/index.html

How is that KI300 coming along, Peter?

Edited May 11, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[gsengle]

If someone wanted seriously to replace their king KFC 150 for example and was willing to spend $$$ what are the options today? G500 and the Garmin autopilot?


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[LANCECASPER]

5 minutes ago, gsengle said:

If someone wanted seriously to replace their king KFC 150 for example and was willing to spend $$$ what are the options today? G500 and the Garmin autopilot?


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The Garmin GFC700 is certified with the G1000 for the Mooney but not the G500.

Century has some autopilots STC'd through the M20K, but I think it's only Bendix King, STEC and Garmin (on G1000 airplanes only) on anything newer.

http://www.centuryflight.com/stcs/stc-list/other-aircraft/1286-mooney.html

[gsengle]

The Garmin GFC700 is certified with the G1000 for the Mooney but not the G500.

So basically we have zero good options?


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