New Listing

[Roger O]

"Always hangared" is a tough one for me, and actually leads me to question some of the other statements about the plane. 

This is a 40 plus year old aircraft.  Unless there has only been one owner since new (not in this case!), who has been around for its lifetime to document that it has always been hangared? 

That plus the facts as noted from the others that it has had a hard life (lots of damage history), and the question of why so many owners in the past few years, leads me to not want this as a plane for me or my family, certainly not before a very thorough PPI and a significant reduction in price. 

[jrwilson]

1 hour ago, Sherman18 said:

"Always hangared" is a tough one for me, and actually leads me to question some of the other statements about the plane. 

This is a 40 plus year old aircraft.  Unless there has only been one owner since new (not in this case!), who has been around for its lifetime to document that it has always been hangared? 

That plus the facts as noted from the others that it has had a hard life (lots of damage history), and the question of why so many owners in the past few years, leads me to not want this as a plane for me or my family, certainly not before a very thorough PPI and a significant reduction in price. 

Or, just skip the PPI, skip this plane, and move on to the next plane...  That is what I would do.  There are lots of planes for sale and if this one is bringing up lots of questions before you've even started a PPI.  That says move to the next, in my opinion.

 

Edit:  I just saw you're post that you're moving on from this one and looking at an E.  Good choice.

Edited April 26, 2017 by jrwilson

[Roger O]

Ok, so the saga continues.  I found a '65 E for sale from one of our members (Calib18) who has an ad on Barnstormers; (http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1245663_1965+Mooney+M20E.html). 

He has had the plane less than a year, and is selling because he is buying a twin Commanche.  I asked him for detailed info, and referred me to his A&P.

I spoke with the A&P who said he would do some research in the logs about my questions, but to please put them in writing in an email.  I did so, and here's what I asked:

- Any damage history, when, how extensive, what was done, and who did it.
- Any 337's and for what.
- When were the tanks resealed, with what method and material and who did it.
- Any noted corrosion, was an anti-corrosion treatment applied and when.
- Condition of gear donuts, and if replaced, when.
- Are all Ad's complied with.
- Current useful load.
- Last annual done and by who.
- When is IFR certification due.
- When was the engine overhauled, and by who.
- Overall condition of the plan, exterior and interior.  Does anything need immediate replacement.
- Is the airplane in airworthy condition.

The A&P's response is as follows: "I dont think this is the plane your looking for at 40000 dollars.  Theres to many questions that i cant answer. I can see where the belly pans were repaired engine was overhauld and prop replaced but no documentation of damage".

Then I spoke with the owner about the response from the A&P and he said: "As far as gear up landing , there is no long entry , I was told the new prop was installed with new engine , I literally just landed her after flying 2 hours , Ronnie hasn't flown it because just between us it's the short body and he's about 275 pounds , kinda like a square peg in a round hole , the plane is in really good shape , for Gods sake it's a 1965 most people born that year are dead lol , all the avionics work , everything works , to make the plane a 65,000 it needs a 430w and a  alt hold installed from Britain , I don't think you could go anywhere in America and find a plane like I have for 45k ragged out 172s sale for what I'm asking , the reason I'm selling is because I have a twin , the engine has less than 300hrs on it. I have all the log books but in order for me to send you all the those it would take 6 hours , to be honest I know what I have and the 45k isn't worth me waisting all my time , I'm not being rude but we are talking about 45k not 300,000 , I can send you all the pics videos of it running flying Ect , bring anyone under the sun with you when you come , it's a clean as hell 1965 mooney m20E that all but flys it's self , I love her but I can't afford it and the twin I'm only 25 years old lol".

So the question of the hour is, would you look at this further, or walk away?

As always, I truly appreciate your comments and opinions!

Roger
 

 

[Oldguy]

Do you have the N number? Should be able to search for NTSB reports for it to see if there were any reported accidents.

As for continuing on this one, a 300 hour engine should not have many log book entries and neither should the prop log if they were both changed out together. If the engine was just O/H'ed I could see more entries for the engine, but the A/P says the prop was replaced. I don't see anything on the number of air frame hours, but my J has over 5000 with three log books and it was a corporate plane for 17 years so I would think it has more documentation than normal.

I guess I would say I am not fond of the "trust me, it's fine" vibe I get from the response you posted. More planes than just this one - move on.

[gsxrpilot]

If this is true... "the 45k isn't worth me waisting all my time" then I'll give ya $35,000 right now and it's out of your way.  But if the $45K IS important, then you're gonna have to send me some logs and let me get it over to a really Mooney mechanic who can actually fly it and check it out properly.

[KSMooniac]

Sounds like a seller that is not prepared to sell the plane. He should already have that data in a spec sheet or electronic file ready to share, and at least a few years of logs scanned/photographed for easy sharing. That is fairly standard these days and easy to accomplish. Or pay a broker to do those things and handle the inquires.

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[Roger O]

Thanks again guys.  I think I will go with the consensus and move on... 

[Godfather]

Personal opinion...

Buyer-

Cut your list of questions in half

Don't sweat the small stuff 

Dont out a member, just mention that they are members 

Put eyes on the plane

 

Seller-

scan the d___ logbooks

Treat every inquiry like you would want to be treated

[Godfather]

Just looked at the 20E linked ad. Looks like a nice plane IMO. If you are passing on this because of a couple responses you received you are taking this process too personally. Contact the seller again and demand the last 7 years of logbooks scanned and sent to you. If they look good hop in a car and go look at it and take a couple hrs to look at the logs etc. 

Seperate yourself from all the tire kickers that use barnstormers as a hobby

[Roger O]

Godfather, as it turns out, I asked a reputable MS member and long time poster about "outing the seller", and  he said that it's not an issue as long as it's not done in a nasty or malicious way, and might actually be helpful to both of us.  As it turns out the seller only posted in one thread, and has not been active.  As far as the logs, his statement to me was "I have all the log books but in order for me to send you all the those it would take 6 hours , to be honest I know what I have and the 45k isn't worth me waisting all my time".  By his own admission he is 25 years old, and we all know that at age 25 you know everything about anything, and no one can tell you otherwise.

This might ultimately be an ok plane, but before I can take her to Don Maxwell and spend some serious money for a thorough PPI, I need some basic information.  Info that he is unwilling to share.  I'm going to pass on this one.

Thanks for your opinion and suggestions!

[gsxrpilot]

Agreed... there was nothing malicious about the post. And I think it's better to say who the owner is rather than just say it's someone on MooneySpace. Calib18 wants to sell his Mooney and Sherman18 wants to buy it. He only posted here in an attempt to get validation for the purchase. 

It would actually be a positive thing if Calib18 logged on and saw this thread. We could all help him sell his Mooney.

[Hoeschen]

I copied every page of all my logbooks back to 1968 to 11x17 paper, (so two pages would fit without being cut off) then scanned to a single PDF per book to email. 7 books in total. Took an hour tops. And a bonus, now I have digital and hard copies for safe keeping.


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[Roger O]

Thank you for that.  This seems like the best way of  preserving the logs in case of a disaster, making it easy for an IA/A&P to quickly scan them.  The bonus is when you sell, all the info is readily available.

[orionflt]

Calib18, Sherman18......seems like it should have been a perfect fit!

[Roger O]

At least we both like the number 18.  For me it means Life!

[Godfather]

Roger I was not knocking you in any way. The seller in his 20's would have no problem working in the digital format and could provide the last 7 years of logbook images with his phone in under five minutes. 

My suggestion is don't come on so strong with the as many generic questions. Carefully read the ad and compare that to the scanned recent logs (again demand that). Ask only the questions that fill in the gaps...meaning you need to read the logs carefully and they could answer a lot of your questions. 

If the logs look good jump in the car or grab a flight to see the plane and pay for a few hrs of a local A&P time to quickly check it over. Only after the plane passed the above process would I pay to have it flown down to have Don look at it. 

[XXX]

16 minutes ago, Sherman18 said:

For me it means Life!

Roger,

Their is a story here I surmise. None of my business I know, but would you care to elaborate? Just piqued my interest.

Steve

[Godfather]

23 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Sorry but there is no way I would buy an AIRPLANE from an individual who displayed both that attitude and level of maturity. Not to mention what the very candid mechanic had to say. Move on. There is nothing to see here. 

I completely agree but also know it is hard to judge potential buyers. The seller did mention he is willing to accommodate any type of in person viewing and log book access.  Nothing about this seller would sway me from a good quality plane at this point. However, he would not be my first choice to run a company. 

[orionflt]

3 minutes ago, Godfather said:

Roger I was not knocking you in any way. The seller in his 20's would have no problem working in the digital format and could provide the last 7 years of logbook images with his phone in under five minutes. 

My suggestion is don't come on so strong with the as many generic questions. Carefully read the ad and compare that to the scanned recent logs (again demand that). Ask only the questions that fill in the gaps...meaning you need to read the logs carefully and they could answer a lot of your questions. 

If the logs look good jump in the car or grab a flight to see the plane and pay for a few hrs of a local A&P time to quickly check it over. Only after the plane passed the above process would I pay to have it flown down to have Don look at it. 

Godfather, just because someone is in their 20's does not mean they know how to operate technology efficiently, in rogers previous post he quoted calib18 as saying it would take him over 6 hours to scan the logs.

I agree that this may not be a plane to run from but if you don't get a good feeling from the beginning then maybe you should move on.

Just my opionon

49 minutes ago, Sherman18 said:

Godfather, as it turns out, I asked a reputable MS member and long time poster about "outing the seller", and  he said that it's not an issue as long as it's not done in a nasty or malicious way, and might actually be helpful to both of us.  As it turns out the seller only posted in one thread, and has not been active.  As far as the logs, his statement to me was "I have all the log books but in order for me to send you all the those it would take 6 hours , to be honest I know what I have and the 45k isn't worth me waisting all my time".  By his own admission he is 25 years old, and we all know that at age 25 you know everything about anything, and no one can tell you otherwise.

This might ultimately be an ok plane, but before I can take her to Don Maxwell and spend some serious money for a thorough PPI, I need some basic information.  Info that he is unwilling to share.  I'm going to pass on this one.

Thanks for your opinion and suggestions!

 

[carusoam]

1) to buy a plane, the buyer wants to see the logs...

2) the seller doesn't want to send them. Technical reason or something in there, doesn't matter....

3) referring the questions to the mechanic.  Nice idea, but the the mechanic is now the de facto sales guy, Reading the logs to come up with answers. Who is paying the mechanic to do this?  If the mechanic isn't getting paid, why is he doing this?  Is he giving full answers?

4) take the logs to Staples. Pay a guy. Get the logs copied and emailed.

5) As a buyer, you are requesting the logs, you may have to pay the seller to do this.  (Starting on the wrong foot)

6) As a seller, you want the buyer to have a copy, you would get the copy made.

7) there is no sense in sending a plane for a PPI unless you expect it to pass.  This would be the worlds crappiest method of forcing negotiations to the seller.

8) you know the sale is good, when the seller digs out every bit, piece, book, memorabilia that goes with the plane...

9) you know things could have gone better when you have to call the seller again and ask where the POH is for the plane.

10) Some people treat their plane like a used car.  They don't usually hang out here either.

11) Some young guys have bought planes that I would have thought was over their financial head.  Then you watch them fully renew the plane, get a few different ratings in it, get jobs in the aviation industry.

12) Some young guns are pretty skilled, especially if they have grown up in an aviation family.

13) In the end, selling a machine takes some skill, effort, and some time. Or some luck...

14) Buying a machine takes some skill, some time and a lot of effort.  Or some luck...

15) If the seller can't match the buyer's needs.  The buyer should move on...  (in a nice reputable way)

Find somebody selling a plane that is putting in as much work as you are buying it.  

They are not a commodity.  They have serial numbers and they are all different.  They get measured for their qualities.

If they were a commodity,  Kelly would have a blue book value for it.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 28, 2017 by carusoam

[ragedracer1977]

I'm just cracking up at that "most people born in 1965 are dead" line.

Did the life expectancy of the average American drop 30 years when I wasn't looking?  

Edited April 28, 2017 by ragedracer1977

[prflyer]

10 hours ago, Sherman18 said:

Ok, so the saga continues.  I found a '65 E for sale from one of our members (Calib18) who has an ad on Barnstormers; (http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1245663_1965+Mooney+M20E.html). 

He has had the plane less than a year, and is selling because he is buying a twin Commanche.  I asked him for detailed info, and referred me to his A&P.

I spoke with the A&P who said he would do some research in the logs about my questions, but to please put them in writing in an email.  I did so, and here's what I asked:

- Any damage history, when, how extensive, what was done, and who did it.
- Any 337's and for what.
- When were the tanks resealed, with what method and material and who did it.
- Any noted corrosion, was an anti-corrosion treatment applied and when.
- Condition of gear donuts, and if replaced, when.
- Are all Ad's complied with.
- Current useful load.
- Last annual done and by who.
- When is IFR certification due.
- When was the engine overhauled, and by who.
- Overall condition of the plan, exterior and interior.  Does anything need immediate replacement.
- Is the airplane in airworthy condition.

The A&P's response is as follows: "I dont think this is the plane your looking for at 40000 dollars.  Theres to many questions that i cant answer. I can see where the belly pans were repaired engine was overhauld and prop replaced but no documentation of damage".

Then I spoke with the owner about the response from the A&P and he said: "As far as gear up landing , there is no long entry , I was told the new prop was installed with new engine , I literally just landed her after flying 2 hours , Ronnie hasn't flown it because just between us it's the short body and he's about 275 pounds , kinda like a square peg in a round hole , the plane is in really good shape , for Gods sake it's a 1965 most people born that year are dead lol , all the avionics work , everything works , to make the plane a 65,000 it needs a 430w and a  alt hold installed from Britain , I don't think you could go anywhere in America and find a plane like I have for 45k ragged out 172s sale for what I'm asking , the reason I'm selling is because I have a twin , the engine has less than 300hrs on it. I have all the log books but in order for me to send you all the those it would take 6 hours , to be honest I know what I have and the 45k isn't worth me waisting all my time , I'm not being rude but we are talking about 45k not 300,000 , I can send you all the pics videos of it running flying Ect , bring anyone under the sun with you when you come , it's a clean as hell 1965 mooney m20E that all but flys it's self , I love her but I can't afford it and the twin I'm only 25 years old lol".

So the question of the hour is, would you look at this further, or walk away?

As always, I truly appreciate your comments and opinions!

Roger
 

 

Roger, with that response I would walk away and never look back. To me, 45K is a lot of hard earned money. Glad the seller does not appear to think so, even though by his own admission he cannot afford both the E and the Twin. Way too many red flags already ....

 

[Trailboss]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

8) you know the sale is good, when the seller digs out every bit, piece, book, memorabilia that goes with the plane...

 

I cannot agree more with this.  My seller was outstanding thru the process.  Six months after I bought my airplane he shipped a box of miscellaneous parts (oil filter, spark plug, personalized check list, hand-held mic) to me he found while cleaning his hangar.  He could have just thrown them away....  

[Roger O]

I guess the title of this thread should be changed to  "How NOT to sell a Mooney" !

On a continued note, I am still looking folks.  If you know or have an M20 C, E or F (or that older J) that is in ready to fly shape, doesn't have to have a glass cockpit, but  I would like IFR instrumentation, electric gear and a 2 axis A/P, I'm very much still in the market.

For those who don't know me, I am 65 years young, have been flying since 1976, and have owned a Model C.  My mission is local flying and that occasional cross country with my wife.

Thanks!

Roger

 

[jrwilson]

Have you checked www.lasar.com. They have a plane  sales section 

Edited April 28, 2017 by jrwilson