Upgrade paths

[Godfather]

Personally I feel the 430 value is too high to upgrade. Sell the unit like it is or trade it in to Chase for a 440.  To upgrade to waas and do the swap later will cost more in the long run. 

[bradp]

I have an email in to Chase asking him if he'd be willing to consider the 430 as a swap. Otherwise I'll buy one from him or Alan outright and just sell the 430. That would cost me about 1 AMU less than sending it to Garmin for the upgrade.

The last permutation I can think of is selling the 430, getting rid of the 296 that sits above it and putting a 530w in its place.  All the helicopters at work have 530s and I like the screen real estate.  Panel surgery would be minimal and the connectors are identical   

(A 540 would have to wait until what my wife says will be my midlife crisis - no fancy sports car for you just a bunch of airplane stuff.  :-)).

Extra 2 AMU worth it for the larger screen?  If you had a choice between a 440 and a 530w, which one?  In the era of wifi networks and iPads I'm thinking the premium for screen real estate in our small panels makes the small guys attractive. 

Anyone use the IFD 100 app and have feedback on its utility with a 440?  Does it make up for the small screen presentation?

 

Eventually I'd like to have Audio Panel, Transponder, GPS and Navcom in the center stack (center post not withstanding) and put an Aera 660 or iPad above the copilot yoke. 


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[cnoe]

Happy to see you getting a 2nd AI. I really like my 530W and rely heavily on it. Foreflight (or other EFB) is a good backup though.

New 440, 540, 650, 750 would be nice but I have other upgrade priorities at the moment.


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[Marauder]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

Hi all,

I wanted to thank every one for their opinions and advice.  I think this is what I'm  going to go for this summer..

 

(Phase 1)

Probable  

- Garmin G5 AI.  Move current AI driving autopilot to the TC position.  

- Upgrade the GNS 430 to a 430W (probably a 440 eventually but that's a simple slide in that can be replaced later)

 

Maybe

- consider a second G5 as an HSI if they come out with some sort of interface with legacy autopilots at Oshkosh.  If at all possible I'd like to avoid more mechanical gyros.  Get rid of KI-209 and KX-170, replace with SL-30 interfaced to the GI-106.  Determine feasibility of adding a micro  switch to select which RS-232 data feed  drives the G5 HSI as nav source (thanks experimental community).  If no G5 HSI options I'll look for a mechanical one / Sandel vs slotting a G5 HSI for situational awareness and keeping a silly DG just to drive the autopilot.  

 

Phase 2:

ADS-B out/in decisions dependent on whether I go with an avidyne or Garmin solution  

 

Phase 3: 

Hopeful for a digital autopilot option...

Opinions still welcome as no calls estimates or commitments have been made.  Thanks again for all your help. 

Good luck. Just let this happen to you...

[Godfather]

I really like the larger screen units but would probably go for the newer interface an hardware. 

[Bob_Belville]

1. A Stormscope 900 is a bargain and potentially a life saver. I'd rather have it than XM or NEXRAD.
2. An Aspen might borrow from next year's budget but it gives you GPSS, electronic HSI and more.
3. Bigger moving map GPS is a very good thing.

[mike_elliott]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:53 PM, KSMooniac said:

The only part of that option I don't like is adding another mechanical gyro to my plane when I'm trying to reduce them. The compatible solid state gyro is still quite expensive too, unfortunately. Otherwise I'd be all over it...

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 

and don't forget the $1700 firmware upgrade to get the Sandel to work with a WAAS box if it doesnt have the "latest"

 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm in the camp that would spend money on capability rather than redundancy/safety. (Worse case scenario, if everything goes to shit, I can fall back to partial panel skills and my iPad/iPhone running ForeFlight and get on the ground)

So I wouldn't be replacing the AI. Rather I'd look for an HSI on the used market ($1000) And then address the WAAS GPS situation. An HSI/WAAS GPS/Autopilot is the best IFR combo anyway.

I'd go 530W today unless I could get all the way to the IFD540. The IFD440 with IFD100 on iPad still doesn't give you IFR plates. IFD540 does and puts them on the IFD100 as well.

Sell the 430 and the 296. Put your iPad on the yoke instead of the 296.

Better yet... keep the 430 and ditch the old Narco. Put a 530W in the center stack above the 430. Move the stuff below the 430 over to the spot vacated by the Narco.  A 530W/430 stack would be very capable, give you solid primary/secondary nav/coms. Add the HSI and you're done!

[bradp]

Something else to keep in mind for the true CBs in us Mooney drivers. My IA is willing to do both the G5 install as well as the WAAS antenna changeout during annual with me. Hmmm. A few AMUs less labor...


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[bradp]

So I went ahead and did the first G5 AI.  

With the announcement of the GAD29B I'm going to go with a second G5 as a DG/HSI/GPSS/backup to first G5 (which is an incredible value for less than 3 AMU and 4 hr batteries) when the GAD29B becomes available.   

Now im trying to decide about WAAS and ADS-B options and hopefully schedule something before the rebate program runs completely dry, and to attempt to minimize the number of times the panel needs to be opened up.   

The most straightforward path right now is to purchase a 430W.  I can either sell my 430 or use the 430 and the Garmin CDI as my nav/com #2 and ditch my trusty KX-170B and Ki-209.  I will need a WAAS source if I want to go with an AXP-340, TT31, or Garmin 330ES vs 335.  (I'm voting with my feet on BK with their repair business decisions and won't be going that way).  

I dont think I want to do anything that will necessitate new holes in the fuselage and antenna runs (so I'm ruling out a standalone 335+gps/345+gps/stratus esg).  

A slightly different path is to do the most simple WAAS upgrade - slide in - and install a GTx-345.  I get that some people like integrated solutions- but I'm not quite seeing the value in the 345 over a tt31/app-340/330/335+(GDL-39 or stratus/stratux) except that its nice and clean without a lot of extra stuff lying around and nice if you present date on both the GTN 750 and an iPad.

The only thing that I've got that's pushing me forward with this right now is whether I want to take advantage of the rebate program for the ADS-B... and the plane is in a happy state of maintenance equilibrium for now as I have all my other projects either done or close to being done.  

What's the big difference between these "out" 1090 transponders?  Some seem to be slide ins but others are only "pretend" slide ins as a new rack is required. Some use squat or airspeed switches but others can use GPS derived data (Garmin?).  How much of a labor difference would it be going from a 76a to a TT31 versus a 76a to a 330ES/335?  I know that power ground and the encoding wires would need to be re-crimped with Dsub connectors in an awkward spot behind the panel.  The rack would need to be drilled out and replaced.  All the boxes will need an rs -232 connection to the navigator for tis and/or GPS data.  To me that seems like 2-3 additional hrs of labor but in avionics world it may really be like 6-8 hrs. Then there's the transponder cert and the paperwork for another few hours  For those who have already made their decisions.. how did you decide on which out box and why?

 

Thanks for reading my train of thought.  Hopefully it will help others considering similar piecemeal upgrades. 

[Godfather]

I'd sell the 430 and buy a 530w or the 650 if you have a cheap avionics shop. This will ensure capability with the G5's going forward. 

Im not sure but I think even with two G5's you can only have one gps or nav source displayed. This would make dual 430's a waste imo. 

Id try to find a used 330es for under 2k or wait until the new 82 unit comes out. 

[Cooperd0g]

The GTX 345 with WAAS I think is only WAAS for the ADSB and doesn't give you the improved approach capability. Because of that I would stick with making the WAAS upgrade built into your main GPS/Comm navigator unit. Otherwise, I do like the GTX345, but I agree that it isn't any more capable than a 330ES or a KT74 paired with a Stratus/Stratux. 

Because of the G5 and your plan for a second for the autopilot, I would stick with Garmin on the WAAS GPS. I like the IFD, and I'm willing to bet it will legally be able to work with the G5 in the future, but there is no guarantee or predictable timeline. As far as which one? Well, I say go for the cheapest, probably the 430W, and get the Flight Stream 210. It sounds like you use an iPad as well. That is your big moving map and your easy way to run the 430W flight plan and routes. 

[jetdriven]

On 4/25/2017 at 10:28 PM, bradp said:

 

Eventually I'd like to have Audio Panel, Transponder, GPS and Navcom in the center stack (center post not withstanding) and put an Aera 660 or iPad above the copilot yoke. 


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Like this 

[bradp]

Like that Byron.  

[bradp]

Okay so I have a 430W on the way and am collecting quotes for installation of a GTX 330ES transponder. The first quote back from a very reputable avionics shop in the region quoted ~18 hours of labor (including paperwork and transponder cert).  Of course seems like a lot of labor hrs to me, and includes those additional things, but can you guys give me a ballpark of what's reasonable?  Some of this is related to routing a new RG400 to the belly (not hard) and a new transponder antenna.  

Thanks!

[jetdriven]

That seems kinda high. I had a gtx345r installed along with everything else and it was 8hrs labor additional. But it's not outrageously high. 

[bradp]

So I thought I'd provide a little update as to my panel revamp. 

So far I added a G5 PFD/AI this summer.  Very happy with it. Rock solid and accurate altitude and airspeed depictions.

I am currently installing:

- GNS430W

- GTX330 ES

- PMA 8000 Bti

- FS 210

The 430W and the transponder are essentially done.   The only thing left for the transponder is tray riveting and configuration and a stack of paperwork.  But I may get $500 back so we got that going for us ... which is nice. Splicing leads with a butane soldering gun in a 90 degree hangar is sporting.  

The audio panel was a "while we're in there" upgrade.  I'll be able to route iPad alerts through and the little one can listen to her frozen - so everyone will be happy.  I will need to rewire the Audio jacks and fashion a cover for the old intercom spot, son that will take some time.  

Overall the project is pretty "minimally invasive" surgery and coming along nicely.  

I made a harness for a GAD-29B to simplify installation of a G5 HSI (winter project).  

-Brad 

 

Harness for G5 HSI

 

looking up every once in a while is healthy. 

 

Opened panel 

 

Transponder wiring (Gray code, power ground, lighting dimmer) ready for harness.  New grounds needed to be made as the KT-76A grounds to the KMA-20s soldered grounding bar in its connector.  Good idea but pretty impractical.  Not exactly a future proofed design. 

[bradp]

More progress.  Had to work for a few days in the middle.  Almost done wiring.  

I also needed a power source so I can run avionics while doing the configuration settings.  Should hopefully have everything signed off by the end of next week.  

I need to fabricate a bracket- it’s essentially going to be a small tray for the flightstream 210 and the GAD29B when I can get my hands on one of those.  I’m down to either aluminum or carbon fiber construction.  Try to keep it simple. It’s going to fit in the space that I removed the 4-Place stand alone intercom.   

The most arduous task has been identifying orphan and otherwise unlabeled wires.  I have everything identified with the exception of the speaker 8-ohm load off the Kx-170B (I found one labeled ramp hail which may be getting close...) and a few grounds   Worse case is that I tie the ground leads to a common airframe ground and call it a day.

All this pretty crappy work had been done by a single avionics shop on the west coast- it’s not the huge one.  If you want details PM me.  I guess you can choose 2 of three  (cheap, fast, good)- so this must have been cheap and fast.  

Second lesson learned  - if I go to an avionics shop for my next upgrade I’m going to plan to make frequent pop-ins and really inspect what’s going on behind the panel.  I think we as a pilot community tend to focus on the pretty glass and bezels without fully appreciating that the business end - and art - is behind the panel.  

 

 

Trying to sort out unlabeled wires

 

 

new power supply for avionics testing  

 

audio harness is is almost complete - fully labeleled  

 

[bradp]

Additional progress today. I finished the Audio panel harness, pinned the GNS 430 for the GTX-330 ES and a GAD-29, as well as connected it to the audio panel for alerting functions. I traced the orphan wires to find which grounds go where and organized everything else vertically so I don’t have harnesses or wires crossing or intersecting / diving as much as possible.

Finally - I was able to place the audio harness (probably better as a two person task)- it went in a couple of inches at a go until I got to the power / ground connections and started to work on them.   Lots and lots of temporary zip ties holding things in some modicum of orientation.   Lots and lots of testing of leads to make sure all grounds are in physical and electrical continuity.  Next will come the backshells and ground lugs.  

As I am doing this wiring I’m realizing how little working space there is behind the panel.  Therefore the racks are the last thing to go it - once everything it tucked in and cozy. 

 

 

Approaching some sembance organization.

 

starting to come together.  Need to reroute the pilot mic / phones son it doesn’t cut through the lighting vertically.   

[carusoam]

Brad,

Are you enjoying the work, the deep technical details and all?

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

Yes - I am.  Avionics work has been the most fun I’ve had with all my maintenance projects.  -Brad

[bradp]

It’s alive !  It’s alive !

Need to spend an afternoon tidying up and then off to the avionics shop for software updates and 91.413 transponder cert.  I still need to fashion a shelf for the FS-210 as well  

I only pinned one headset jack backwards and all the interconnects I tested and seem to be working with the boxes racked.  So far so good. The audio quality is about 10-fold improved right off the bat.  

[bradp]

Finished the panel work today.  Had the transponder cert done and software updates for the GDL69 (so it can work with the flightstream) and GNS 430 some. 

Everything seems to work well so far with one exception (below).   Final configuration and test flight hopefully early next week (I travel for work starting tomorrow).  

I also fabricated a bracket for the Flight Stream. It’s made of carbon fiber.  I figured I’d get a better Bluetooth signal with CF versus aluminum and I had some laying around.  It’s essentially a right angle tray that goes flush to the panel where the old intercom went.  It’s got an angle on the pilots side for support and open on the copilot side for easy access.  The hardest part was making sure that the screw holes did not introduce a yaw error to the flight stream AHARS.  

I’m going to do a GAD29B (roughly the same footprint) next spring, so I can just make a shelf one level below and support it with though screws and bushings. 

 

Unfortunately I think I either have a configuration issue or a limitation with the flight stream.  I used to see Metars and nexrad on the 430 screen via the GDL-69.  I now have the flightstream 210 pinned to that same Rs-232 port/channnel (connext) and the GDL-69 pinned to the flight stream.  The GDL no longer displays on the 430W but does display as a connected LRU on the flight stream via Garmin Pilot.  I called Garmin tech support and was told that the flight stream does not pass gdl-69 data via the connext format.  I’m out of Rs-232 channels so parallel wiring the GDL-69 to the 430W isn’t an option.  I think it’s a more of a limitation but wanted to ask the group to see if there are any creative solutions to getting the data to display on a 430/530   I have the iPad with ADSB Weather on floreflight but kind of like the XM product which is why I kept it around. I’m not sure I see the value in paying for both a Garmin pilot and XM subscription if I already have adsb via stratus even though it’s finicky and battery operated.  We’ll see.  

@Piloto I tried mounting my fire extinguisher where you have yours and it hits my knee - I may go to the copilot side in the same location or back against the spar.   

 

So so here’s a quick tour of the new panel.

All in I’ll be about 4.3-4.6 AMUs after I sell the old stuff and do the validation flight for adsb (that’s for GNS 430W, GTX 330ES, 8000BTi, flight stream 210, tools, disposables, avionics shop and IA costs).  I have about 70 hours of my own labor in it.  A pretty satisfying project.  Out of it I also got a job offer as a tech at the local avionics shop if I like- I told them I’d just come by every once in a while to shoot the $hit and learn something.  

[bradp]

I guess this means the kinks have been worked out:

 

Now I’m getting itch to do this (mostly for the GPSS and the fact that I miss flying with an HSI).  

 

Chris you’re right ... this tinkering is starting to become an addition.  I may have convinced my wife it was all worth it on the last flight.  She’s a bit peeved that she didn’t get an orientation to the new transponder before our first family flight with it - as she is the queen of transponder code and frequency changes.  

[bradp]

Here’s the next bit of upgrade for QH’s panel upgrade.  I found a good deal on a used Aera 660 on eBay.  Out goes the old 296 and in will go the Aera.  

What I’m thinking about now is: 

1) Aera 660 to be hard wired to try GNS-430 (probably via a parallel RS-232 MapMx output). It will also Bluetooth to the flightstream 210 for flight plan sync / updates.  It will not get XM weather from the flight stream 210 like an iPad running GP could.  It can show traffic via RS-232 to either an adsb receiver or a TISA connection to a GTX transponder.  It does have aural terrain and obstacle alerting - something that only the IFD line of certificated receivers has so far (which is nice). It will also display synth vis up front and center from the FS-210 adahars.  

2) Install the new GDL-52R ($200 or so rebate from XM).  I can hard wire this to the existing XM antenna and use my current “what’s this antenna” spot on my belly for an adsb antenna   

3) Remove the GDL-69. Plan to sell.  Sell the GPSMap 296 and my Stratus As well.  Will be somewhat “cost neutral”.  I’ll keep XM Weather and gain adsb traffic in a somewhat permanent panel mount format.  I’ll be able to keep TIS-A traffic (which works in my local area) displayed on the GNS-430W   

4) Install the second G5 HSI.  With this I will remove the GI-106A and have a spot for either a turn coordinator or a stormscope. 

In the end my panel will look something like @jetdriven and @Beccas without the Sandle or the GTN but with a dual G5.  

And then we’ll be all set for when the autopilots get STCd...

 

The little hands are my daughter who just turned 4 and knows righty tightly lefty loosey.  She wants to be a “fixer” and a ballerina when she grows up.