Bladders are orphaned

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

can a plane that has had bladders installed be converted back or is that "game over", do you know?

I've heard several times that the bladder conversion is one way. That did not figure into my decision to reseal my tanks in 2010. No problems, and it was finished on time and on budget near you--Wet Wingologists at KFXE.

[Piloto]

2 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

and also if you keep your wet wings in a hanger with fuel in them, they will last at least 10 years or more. Heat is the enemy of both. Jose, can a plane that has had bladders installed be converted back or is that "game over", do you know?

The only owners that has asked me about it are those that wanted the long range tanks because they have the Missile conversion. The long range tanks are not compatible with the bladders. If your happy with the bladders keep them. But if you plan to have Long Range tanks or the Missile conversion keep the wet wings.

José

[bonal]

We will just have to see what transpires going forward. Mine were installed in 06 and plane is in a hangar never left dry. No reason to think they won't last for a long long time I'm not worried. As for going back to wet I can't imagine it's not possible but might be very expensive 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

and also if you keep your wet wings in a hanger with fuel in them, they will last at least 10 years or more. Heat is the enemy of both. Jose, can a plane that has had bladders installed be converted back or is that "game over", do you know?

I'm parked outside and still have my original sealant from 1976. No issues. I'm an F so I can't keep the tanks full (64 total gallons is far too much for most flights). 

-Robert

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, Piloto said:

Fuel tank bladders are no longer used in new production aircraft for a long time. So the market is small and decreasing. If you keep your bladders in a hangar with fuel in them they will last at least 10 years or more.

José

Ten years is certainly a safe pronoucement, José!

Mine were installed in 1997, several here are older than that without any issue. I think we've found in previous reseal vs. bladder debates that no one actually knows of any Mooney bladder failures. 

[bonal]

Appropriate thread drift. How old are your bladders and how is your airplane stored.  Mine 2006 stored indoors except for one year. And have you had any issues with them.

[rbridges]

Just now, bonal said:

Appropriate thread drift. How old are your bladders and how is your airplane stored.  Mine 2006 stored indoors except for one year. And have you had any issues with them.

2010 install and kept indoors.  Way too early to use as a data point.

[neilpilot]

Bladders installed in my 64E by DMax in 2001,  Kept in hangar and no issues until N1310W was totaled in 2012.

[jetdriven]

1996 here. No issues. 

[mike_elliott]

13 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Ten years is certainly a safe pronoucement, José!

Mine were installed in 1997, several here are older are older than that without any issue. I think we've found in previous reseal vs. bladder debates that no one actually knows of any Mooney bladder failures. 

 

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

1996 here. No issues. 

How old are your fuel lines? 10+ years is long time to trust fuel lines. Are the Mooney bladders made of material that is that much more durable than fuel lines to last indefinitely as to not pose a real risk to a potential buyer of needing replacement, or would it be fair to prorate them in a prebuy like you would wet tanks, gear donuts, engines, etc?

[Bob_Belville]

In the AGL shop yesterday watching a couple of mechanics locating multiple leaks in a wet wing Mooney tank. They marked 4 spots to be patched after filling the tank with water and using a shop vac to pull a slight vacuum. Now they'll have to do the patches and replace 2 access panels. They went through the same process a couple of week ago on the other wing. And this plane had a complete reseal by someone else somewhere else last year. No thanks.

[N601RX]

I have some of the earlier ones.  I opened them up 4 or 5 years ago to replace some of the cork gaskets that were leaking.  The gaskets had been previously over tightened.  They appeared to still be in good shape and soft and pliable. 

The main concern is that the PMA remainin in place and that if Griggs isn't interested in supporting it then they write a letter to the bladder manufacturer releasing them from the wording of their contract that prevents them from selling directly.  O&N had a lot of other STC's that are probably of much more value to the buyer.  It may have been that they had to buy all of them to get the ones they really wanted.

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

 

How old are your fuel lines? 10+ years is long time to trust fuel lines. Are the Mooney bladders made of material that is that much more durable than fuel lines to last indefinitely as to not pose a real risk to a potential buyer of needing replacement, or would it be fair to prorate them in a prebuy like you would wet tanks, gear donuts, engines, etc?

Mike, I appreciate your appreciation of Paul Beck. But really? Buyers do not discount bladders for age. They sure do want to know about the history of wet wings. I think it would be appropriate to worry about service life of bladders when there's some actual data of bladders wearing out.

[mike_elliott]

49 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mike, I appreciate your appreciation of Paul Beck. But really? Buyers do not discount bladders for age. They sure do want to know about the history of wet wings. I think it would be appropriate to worry about service life of bladders when there's some actual data of bladders wearing out.

Your probably right, Bob. If a plane just had bladders put in in the last couple years,I wouldn't have a concern in the world. but when they are 20+ years old and now not being able able to get new parts when needed (maybe they have a 30 year life, but I doubt if it is much longer than fuel lines) It would cause me as a buyer to discount it accordingly, just as I would a 20 year old wet wing like Robert Gary's. I really hope a bunch of the bladder owners get together and resurrect the STC so it doesn't cause an availability issue in the future for anyone. 

[Marauder]

I think there is still a lot of speculation on what is going on (or not) with the STC. I will try to reach them to understand the situation.

As someone who has 26 year old bladders (wish I could say the same for my real bladder), I am not overly concerned.


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[rbridges]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

I think there is still a lot of speculation on what is going on (or not) with the STC. I will try to reach them to understand the situation.

As someone who has 26 year old bladders (which I could say the same for my real bladder), I am not overly concerned.


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I'd appreciate it if you could shed some light on the situation. 

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

I'd appreciate it if you could shed some light on the situation. 

What? ! ?

The truth?  It's  much more fun to speculate, prognosticate, and throw the STC owner to the wolves.

Rob, you and Chris may get kicked off MS.  

[Mooneymite]

I got this email from Matt Griggs of Griggs Aviation today (1/7/2016).  It doesn't sound like the bladders are orphaned at all:

Hello Gus and thank you for contacting us. Yes we bought the STC's for all the fuel system that O&N previously owned. we are continuing to sell parts/ pieces/ support and new kits as well.  All of the people that work here used to work for O&N and actually our fuel tank guys are the ones that helped O&N design and build them for all these years.  At the moment we are in the process of getting our PMA setup here at our facility just waiting on the blessing from the FAA to be able to complete new kits. In the mean time we have parts we can ship out for people in need.  So please let everyone know that nothing has really changed other than the name and location.

GRIGGS AIRCRAFT REFINISHING  http://www.griggsaircraft.com/

• 17 RUNWAY ROAD
• TUNKHANNOCK, PA 18657
• GENER: INFO@GRIGGSAIRCRAFT.COM
• AVIONICS & PAINT: MATT@GRIGGSAIRCRAFT.COM
• WOLF AIRCRAFT PRODUCTS: CHRIS@GRIGGSAIRCRAFT.COM
• (570) 836-5757