hydrophobic coating as anti-ice

[goncaloareia]

As anyone heard of any developments regarding the hydrophobic coatings as an anti ice strategy?

Anyone tried it? They sure work on cars but repealing water on a car and ice on a wing are different things... but it could work as help for a quick evasion from an icing up scenario, giving more time to the pilot due to slower ice accumulation...

Here's an example on car usage of these products:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RBLlviz2Rk

I see lots of feedback on study for aircraft usage of hydrophobic coatings around 2010-2013 but nothing lately.

Will this technology be a "no show" like the thermawing?

[rbridges]

I remember some guy posting on POA.  He had sprayed the leading edge of his wings with some spray and noticed that snow didn't stick to it.  For the life of me, I can't remember what he used, but it wasn't designed to be an anti-ice treatment.

[Danb]

Very interesting

[peevee]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

I remember some guy posting on POA.  He had sprayed the leading edge of his wings with some spray and noticed that snow didn't stick to it.  For the life of me, I can't remember what he used, but it wasn't designed to be an anti-ice treatment.

probably wd40... and urine. I think it was piloto.

[peevee]

Problem with hydrophobic coatings seems to have been that ice behaves differently from water and they don't work.

I think this looks promising though:

http://www.battelle.org/newsroom/press-releases/battelle-heatcoat-anti-icing-technology-for-drones-passes-milestone

[Hank]

I remember someone testing a hydrophobic coating purchased at HD/Lowes, said it wore off the leading edges pretty quickly, just two or three flights. Would find recent testing to be interesting, though.

[Piloto]

4 hours ago, peevee said:

Problem with hydrophobic coatings seems to have been that ice behaves differently from water and they don't work.

I think this looks promising though:

http://www.battelle.org/newsroom/press-releases/battelle-heatcoat-anti-icing-technology-for-drones-passes-milestone

Of course water and ice behave differently, water is liquid and ice is solid. Ice or snow would not stick to the wing but freezing rain will do. If the bonding of freezing rain can be prevented then there is no icing. I think that hydrophobics is the way to prevent icing at a low cost. After all that is what TKS is all about. I experimented with WD-40 in my home refrigerator and found to really work on keeping freezing water from sticking to aluminum surface. I tried other compounds that didn't work even though they claimed to be hydrophobic. Looking forward to my next trip to KAGC this winter to try WD-40 again.

José

Edited October 25, 2016 by Piloto

[peevee]

9 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Of course water and ice behave differently, water is liquid and ice is solid. Ice or snow would not stick to the wing but freezing rain will do. If the bonding of freezing rain can be prevented then there is no icing. I think that hydrophobics is the way to prevent icing at a low cost. After all that is what TKS is all about. I experimented with WD-40 in my home refrigerator and found to really work on keeping freezing water from sticking to aluminum surface. I tried other compounds that didn't work even though they claimed to be hydrophobic. Looking forward to my next trip to KAGC this winter to try WD-40 again.

José

And super cooled liquid droplets behave differently from both. That's the problem.

[klystron]

A close friend of mine was working on developing anti-ice coatings for NASA some time ago. They came up with some nifty solutions but ran into several problems:

1) Effective chemicals were pretty nasty.

2) The stuff that worked the best was far too expensive.

3) The coatings did not last long.

4) PETA started complaining about the mass murder of crickets... 

 

I'll ask him if he published anything on the research he did. 

[N400YS]

2 hours ago, klystron said:

4) PETA started complaining about the mass murder of crickets... 

 

 

LOL

[goncaloareia]

Will give WD40 a try! Do you guys know if WD40 attacks the paint or our glass, or both?

[mooniac15u]

Ice accumulation on airframes occurs in a wide variety of conditions that can't easily be simulated in a freezer.  It would be dangerous to assume that WD40 will give you useful protection against icing.

[Piloto]

4 hours ago, goncaloareia said:

Will give WD40 a try! Do you guys know if WD40 attacks the paint or our glass, or both?

WD-40 does not react with paint or plastics. But it will be messy on the windshield.

José

[goncaloareia]

Hi José, thanks for the feedback!

Regarding the WD40 capacities, I'm fully aware that this is not an anti ice solution, but using it or a superhydrophobic product can give me some precious minutes to find solutions and getting out of an ice encounter in a better shape (less ice accumulation and easier dissipation) than without the usage of any of these products.

And so my point is: my mooney 252 will not become a FIKI ship, but having these products on my wing is better than nothing, and at least some results (even if small) could be expected. Seeing ice accumulating on a wing is scary enough to not use all the tools we have!

Finally, in Portugal the climate is far from cold as you guys probably know (A/C is more popular than TKS on aircraft options!), so the typical ice encounters are not wild and moving to a different temperature layer and seeing the ice going way with some help from these products is something that I can foresee as happening!

[mooniac15u]

How long will the WD40 remain on the wing during normal flight conditions?  Why do you believe that it will have an impact on ice accumulation in flight?  This has not been objectively tested in a flight environment.

I'm not trying to be difficult.  There is just no evidence that this will have any meaningful impact.  Believing that you have some sort of protection against icing is far more dangerous than knowing you do not.

[goncaloareia]

2 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

How long will the WD40 remain on the wing during normal flight conditions?  Why do you believe that it will have an impact on ice accumulation in flight?  This has not been objectively tested in a flight environment.

I'm not trying to be difficult.  There is just no evidence that this will have any meaningful impact.  Believing that you have some sort of protection against icing is far more dangerous than knowing you do not.

I see your point and agree with it: Don't get me wrong, I don't intend at all to go fly into ice conditions with some WD40 spray and think i can deal with it!! And I won't AT ALL count with some WD40 or similar product on my decisions for go-no go or during flight. It's just another thing that MAY be "nice to have", again and as you say, with no guarantee whatsoever that will give any protection. In the end, the best possible result I would expect would be some delay in ice accumulation...

Thanks for your input!

[Hedge]

I was taking my daughter on a college visit, and CASE WESTERN University was working on a permananent coating that ice will not work on.  One of the big problems with the large windmills is the accumulation of ice on the blades.  As the temperature heats up, the windmills throw the ice projectile a very long way.  So they can't be used in any urban setting during cold weather.  They specifically said, it is also being tested for airplane wings for deicing.

 

My guess in the coating would be expensive, but if it worked, it would replace a lot of stuff and not cost you any speed.

 

Mark

[AndyFromCB]

I think your biggest problem with any sort of hydrophobic coating, or WD40 is runback. If the water does not freeze upon hitting the leading edge, it will freeze the moment it hits an unprotected area farther back on the wing causing even greater flow disruptions than if it formed on leading edge. So I'd be very, very careful putting anything on leading edges to prevent ice formation. TKS is different as it mixes with water and depresses the freezing point  of the entire solution.

Snow never sticks to wings in flight as far as I have been able to tell, never had icing issues in snowstorms.

[Jerry 5TJ]

How about we collect some real data: Those of us who do fly in icing conditions with our FIKI planes can start spraying WD40 on the unprotected areas (areas with no TKS panel) of one wing and see how it compares with the same untreated area on the other wing during icing. 

The taxi and landing light lens is mid-span on newer planes, about a foot of leading edge with no TKS.  That area can be photographed from the cabin fairly well. I'll use that spot.  

Debate is fine but photo evidence is better.

My hunch: No improvement using WD40.  Why? Because a fair amount of TKS fluid must flow to inhibit ice formation.   I suspect a film of WD40 applied before departure will be gone too quickly to be efficacious.  But we'll find out.  

 

[AaronDC8402]

It seems like the WD-40 would be especially ineffective if you fly through above freezing visual moisture before climbing into the freezing level.

[goncaloareia]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

How about we collect some real data: Those of us who do fly in icing conditions with our FIKI planes can start spraying WD40 on the unprotected areas (areas with no TKS panel) of one wing and see how it compares with the same untreated area on the other wing during icing. 

The taxi and landing light lens is mid-span on newer planes, about a foot of leading edge with no TKS.  That area can be photographed from the cabin fairly well. I'll use that spot.  

Debate is fine but photo evidence is better.

My hunch: No improvement using WD40.  Why? Because a fair amount of TKS fluid must flow to inhibit ice formation.   I suspect a film of WD40 applied before departure will be gone too quickly to be efficacious.  But we'll find out.  

 

Jerry, that would be awesome! Some WD40 on the landing light cover on a FIKI plane is a great idea to kill the myth, or maybe not!!!!!! Looking forward to get some feedback!!!! Thanks. Goncalo

[Browncbr1]

I'm in the apparel manufacturing business..  We manufacture technical outerwear for some pretty big action sports brands.  Most of what we make for them has a DWR flourine coating applied to the textile...   I had often wondered how this would lend to spraying on an airframe.  .. Here is a link to some basic info on this chemical.. http://www.greenchemistryandcommerce.org/documents/7.DuPont-DWR.pdf

Basically, it inhibits water's ability to break surface tension at stick to anything.     I guess RainX is just basically rebranded DWR.  I do know that textile will hold only 80% of DWR after 20 machine washes, so it is definitely not permanent.  But, this stuff should be able to spray on (and let it dry), rather than rubbing in like rainX.  It can go on clear probably with a garden weed killer spray bottle that you pump up.

My uncle flies in ice fairly often with his C401.. He has hot props, but he had toyed with wax and rainX on props and wings and noticed a helpful difference.

I dare not fly near ice in my mooney, but just thought I would chime in with info above.

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Browncbr1

[klystron]

6 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

I'm in the apparel manufacturing business..  We manufacture technical outerwear for some pretty big action sports brands.  Most of what we make for them has a DWR flourine coating applied to the textile...   I had often wondered how this would lend to spraying on an airframe.  .. Here is a link to some basic info on this chemical.. http://www.greenchemistryandcommerce.org/documents/7.DuPont-DWR.pdf

Basically, it inhibits water's ability to break surface tension at stick to anything.     I guess RainX is just basically rebranded DWR.  I do know that textile will hold only 80% of DWR after 20 machine washes, so it is definitely not permanent.  But, this stuff should be able to spray on (and let it dry), rather than rubbing in like rainX.  It can go on clear probably with a garden weed killer spray bottle that you pump up.

My uncle flies in ice fairly often with his C401.. He has hot props, but he had toyed with wax and rainX on props and wings and noticed a helpful difference.

I dare not fly near ice in my mooney, but just thought I would chime in with info above.

 

Yeah, I would think that something like RainX would probably work better than WD40. 

[peevee]

Just now, klystron said:

Yeah, I would think that something like RainX would probably work better than WD40. 

I never thought about rainx. I should do the leading edges just to see if it's easier to remove bugs.

Edited October 26, 2016 by peevee

[mooniac15u]

I don't know exactly what's in RainX but most water repellents just form a waxy coating.  I wouldn't expect RainX to behave any differently than any other wax you might apply to your airframe..