Folding Rear Bench Seat

[KSMooniac]

I have a '77 201 with the fixed rear bench seat, and am planning to modify my seat so that I'll be able to fold it flat for more cargo volume when flying solo or two-up.  I'm especially anxious to be able to easily carry full-sized bicycles among other things!  I'm going to do this via a 337 Field Approval, and possibly even make an STC for the modification.

So, I'm wondering how much interest there might be from other Mooney owners with the fixed rear seat to make such a modification.  In my past searching it seems the old Mod Works had a mod to convert the rear bench but they charged a couple thousand bucks (not including reupholstery) and of course buying later model individual bucket seats is an option at much greater expense, if they can be found.  Would you be interested?  How much would it be worth to you?  I haven't priced/estimated yet how much my new parts would cost, but I'm quite confident I could make a kit that will come in *well* under the Mod Works option, and possibly not require any upholstery work.

This is something I plan to start working on very soon, and it could be available within a couple months (I think).

[rgaines]

I am in the middle of a major mod project for my M20C. Did you obtain the field approval on the fold down read seat. I have a M20C and want the seat to fold down.  It seems like an easy mod.  How did you do this?

 

Thanks

 

RObert Gaines

[LFOD]

Scott, 

  Very interested to see how this works out. When I was looking for my Mooney split/removable rear seats was high on the list. With a foldable seat, that cargo area is cavernous. 

[KSMooniac]

Well, unfortunately I have not chased this project through completion yet.  I have a good idea of what I'm going to do, but need to draw up some parts and get them fabricated.  I took my rear seat out earlier this year and made some measurements of everything and now just need to put aside some time to do it.  At this rate it is going to be a winter project, I'm afraid.

I think getting an STC approval will be fairly straightforward.  My hope is that I can create a kit that will sell for a few hundred bucks that will enable the seat to fold down quickly and easily without the need for tools or recovering the seat.  This will be substantially cheaper than retrofitting later model Mooney seats.

[LFOD]

I really hope this works... I think the quote to modify older Mooneys is several thousand dollars.  Absolutely ridiculous.  

[Piloto]

I think it is a very good idea. I have the folding seats on my 82 M20J and when my son was in college I used it all the time we visited him. When visiting relatives in Christmas it is very handy for carrying gifts. I have been able to carry A 32" tv set in the box with no problem. Beware that the carrying space is greater than what you can fit on average rental car.  Before you proceed with the mod i would suggest to get the Mooney parts manual to see how it is implemented. Keep in mind that on the bench seat the seat back is supported by a beam across the cabin width but on the folding seats the back is supported by a reclining mechanism at the back axle. On the factory reclining seats you have to remove the back and seat cushions before reclining down the back support. To get an FAA approval for the mod you may need to prove that the back will withstand the forces of a crash impact. Good luck.

José

 

[KSMooniac]

José, my approach will be to develop some new interface brackets between the seat back and the tubular frame, and show equivalent strength for the crash condition of baggage hitting the seat back.  It should be pretty straight-forward.  The former owner of my plane (he moved up to an M20R) owns a machine shop and will help me with the fabrication once I get the design & analysis complete.

[mjc]

If you really can get an STC without a massive investment, I think it'll end up being worth it.

My M20C has the split-reclining-removable (not so much folding) seats in back, and I think they're great. I'm spoiled to the point where I would really want them in any airplane I move up to. I asked a Mooney shop about converting an earlier M20J if I should find a way to get one, and was told the same thing others have mentioned. It would cost several thousand dollars, require a field approval that's hard to get, and that I should try to find a 1982 or later model to avoid the expense. So in a way, your STC could save an owner some money by opening up five more years of M20Js for consideration!

[rgaines]

I have an M20C with the old style bench seat. It seems to me that the bench seat could fold down and simply hinge on the lower two brackets and be held in in place by some movable latch at the two brackets higher up on the back of the seat.

 

 

[aviatoreb]

Hi Folks,

Who travels with a bicycle?  Can you really get a full sized bicycle into a Mooney?  I am shopping airplanes...

I presume a M20J folding seat style system, or mods to get you there, are required.  So two bikes, two people would be a favorite mission if it can do it.  I am guessing the bikes fit in the space, but what is it like monkey'ing bikes around the corner in the one door and over the front seats?  It must be hard with one knee on the wing trying to place the bikes in around the corner and not scratch bike, plane pain or interior.

If anyone actually does this, do you have pictures of what the bikes look like on the inside, or the process of getting them in?

Also, does anyone know the measurement of the cargo area with rear seats folded down?

Thanks!

[Jerry 5TJ]

My M20C came with a rear cargo mod crafted by an earlier owner.  It replaces the bench seats (also delivered with the plane).  The mod is a two-piece hinged platform crafted of thin plywood covered with ugly nylon carpet.  It is approximately hour-glass shaped and fills the space from where the baggage floor ends to a bit forward of the wing spar.  It is held down by ties to the two outboard rear seat belt anchors.  Very effective, the space is about 5' long, and the weight is less than the seats it replaces.  Too bad it is illegal and no STC or 337 came with it.  It makes the plane an "honest" 2 seater with lots of baggage room and yes, you can get your bicycles in there, if they will go through the door.  

[scottfromiowa]

Brian did this conversion.  Check through old posts.  He did plans and really communicated how he accomplished this with detailed e-mails.  I want to do, but am NOT there yet.  His involved drilling the rear back cushion and inserting bolts (holed) with locking pins...if memory serves...and hinging back so it would fold properly.  Look through old vintage posts for piperpainter.  Scott, I would be interested in a kit...more so if I didn't have to mess with existing seat fabric.  Good luck as you go into the tight space of the backseat world.

Scott

[flight2000]

Here's the link that Bryan (piperpainter) had someone upload for him.  He modified his M20C for this and it came out nice.  I really have no need for it, but love the idea just for the versatility.

http://www.eisenhard.net/brucee/mooney/Seats.pdf

[Immelman]

Quote: aviatoreb

Hi Folks,

Who travels with a bicycle?  Can you really get a full sized bicycle into a Mooney?  I am shopping airplanes...

I presume a M20J folding seat style system, or mods to get you there, are required.  So two bikes, two people would be a favorite mission if it can do it.  I am guessing the bikes fit in the space, but what is it like monkey'ing bikes around the corner in the one door and over the front seats?  It must be hard with one knee on the wing trying to place the bikes in around the corner and not scratch bike, plane pain or interior.

If anyone actually does this, do you have pictures of what the bikes look like on the inside, or the process of getting them in?

Also, does anyone know the measurement of the cargo area with rear seats folded down?

Thanks!

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

...yes, you can get your bicycles in there, if they will go through the door.  

[Immelman]

Quote: aviatoreb

Thanks folks.  Yes, I think I can see how bikes will fit back there.  Wheels off and maybe seatpost off.

So how hard is it to get your bike through the door?  Can you describe the process a little bit what that is like?  I ride a 61cm road bike and I am imagining this might be difficult to impossible.

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Immelman

I am 6' 3" and, well, I forget my frame size but its in that neighborhood. Take the wheels off, maybe the seat post, get up on on the wing and just sort of slide it on in through the door being careful not to scratch anything. I've tried it with the handlebars forward and aft. As I recall the only time it was tricky or required a second try was when I was putting both my and my wife's bike in. I put the tires on top of the frame, padded of course, and tie everything down.

Also, my road bike has a carbon frame (nice and light -- a Kestrel) so maneuvering it is very easy.

 

Thanks Immelman, If you are 6'3'', I bet you are riding a 61cm.  I am riding a 62cm.  You might be riding a 59cm if you have short legs for your height.

I am looking at an earlier 231 which does not have the fold down seats but it does have split seats.  I am wondering if I can simply have my A&P remove the right rear seat this giving me easier access to putting in one bike when I go solo with bike, but then I would have the ability to still fly 3 people when that mission calls - and this fits W&B better anyway.  Does that work - can you remove just one of the two rear seats to leave a flat half of the cargo bay?

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Immelman

I am 6' 3" and, well, I forget my frame size but its in that neighborhood. Take the wheels off, maybe the seat post, get up on on the wing and just sort of slide it on in through the door being careful not to scratch anything. I've tried it with the handlebars forward and aft. As I recall the only time it was tricky or required a second try was when I was putting both my and my wife's bike in. I put the tires on top of the frame, padded of course, and tie everything down.

Also, my road bike has a carbon frame (nice and light -- a Kestrel) so maneuvering it is very easy.

 

Thanks Immelman, If you are 6'3'', I bet you are riding a 61cm.  I am riding a 62cm.  You might be riding a 59cm if you have short legs for your height.

I am looking at an earlier 231 which does not have the fold down seats but it does have split seats.  I am wondering if I can simply have my A&P remove the right rear seat this giving me easier access to putting in one bike when I go solo with bike, but then I would have the ability to still fly 3 people when that mission calls - and this fits W&B better anyway.  Does that work - can you remove just one of the two rear seats to leave a flat half of the cargo bay?

[KSMooniac]

I have a 61cm Kestrel (amazing with the size/hobby/bike brand overlaps!) and have carried it in the back of my J on occasion.  Both wheels off, seat pushed all the way into the seat tube and I carefully load it through the entry door and secure it on top of my baggage and rear seat.  Wheels go over the top of that mess or on the rear seat.  I haven't tried it with the seat down yet, but I'm sure that would be a much better way to go and I plan to do that in May with two tri bikes.  I'm thinking of leaving the rear wheels on, and secure them to the floor with a pair of fork mounts bolted to a piece of aluminum to span the width of the rear seat.

To make the loading process easier, I run the pax seat all the way forward and bungee the seat back forward as far as it will go.  That way I can use both hands to wrestle the frame into the back by myself.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: KSMooniac

I have a 61cm Kestrel (amazing with the size/hobby/bike brand overlaps!) 

[KSMooniac]

Quote: aviatoreb

Has anyone here ever (for funny) dreamed of yakima or Thule bike racks for your bikes for the top of the airplane - or maybe the thule would carry the bikes on the wings?  Two bike on each wing.  That would be cool...

[Carsten Gott]

Hurray, I finally have a Mooney!!! Just bought a 231 project that will need some revitalization... And when I am doing the interior, that is the time to think about a folding rear bench. How did that project go on. Is there an STC existing?

Concerning the bikes: that is what I want it for. We are living in Europe and we have foldable bikes and fly to different places and then go on with them. They do a great job to get you to public transport etc.. It is a great way of sightseeing, since there are absolutely no courtesy-cars around here.

[carusoam]

Carsten,

Congrats on the acquisition…

You are now looking for Mooney parts for your Mooney… so no STC required….  Because the TC has all the references…
 

Part numbers are in the parts catalog….  

Now getting those parts can be a bit challenging / expensive….

We have people around here that deal in the pre-flown parts arena…

That can be helpful…

@Alan Fox

@Jerry Pressley

@SheryLoewen

Good luck with the hunt…

Best regards,

-a-

[Skates97]

I have the pdf file of Piper Painter's rear folding seat mod but when I try to attach it here I get an error.

@mooniac58, did something get messed up in the migration? I can't seem to upload anything, jpg, pdf, etc... to a post.

The error is:

Sorry, an unknown server error occurred when uploading this file. (Error code: /home/mooneysp/public_html/uploads/monthly_2021_07 could not be created.)

[mooniac58]

As we are still in the final phases of migration to a new server it could be some kind of system perimssions on the machine.  Once the support team wraps up the migration I will sort out kinks like this.  Hang tight but it could be 24 hours or so.