Mooney Training and Opinions

[djkling]

Hey guys, New to the forums so a little background:

I'm 38 about to finish my private pilot license and then will be jumping rather quickly into my instrument rating.  I'm a doc and have a very good friend who is a former airline pilot who went into nursing and we are considering going in on a plane together.  I have been nosing around several planes that all fit my XC type flying (I spent most of my adult life in Reno, NV and now live in New Hampshire, and wife wants to be able to travel the country and maybe someday outside) and settled into the SR22, Cessna P210, Mooney M20K 252 (or the 305) conversion, or the Maule MX-T-7 series.  After talking with my friend he really wants to get a Mooney.  Mostly he hates composite airplanes like the SR22 and thinks the P210 will be a lot of maintenance and issues (he had a T210 and is an A&P and seen many problems over time with it).  The 231 has some finicky bits with the fixed waste gate and overboosting so the 252 or 305 conversion seemed the best bang-for-buck and safety profile.  

Some things we were trying to figure out: I haven't ever flown one and he hasn't flown one for about 15 years.  Is there any transition training programmes for mooney pilots? I realize I'm still about a year out from purchase with my instrument rating and getting complex/HP endorsements but that also means I need to start saving.  

Are there other aircraft (Mooney or other) that I should be looking for in the $125-$175k range?  I could go higher if needed but that is a sweet spot in my budget. What is after the 252 in terms of the M20's and are they any "better"?

Thanks for hearing out all my very pedestrian questions but I'm trying to get some real world answers from people who fly these planes since (and please dont kill me here) I had never heard of Mooney until my friend brought them up.  I did read the entire other thread on this after searching and 15 pages in I see many of the issues so to patch some up:

1) will be plodding though instrument ratings since my instructor right now is a major fan of "fly IFR plans everywhere, its a better way when you're going far"

2) Between my co-buyer and my instructor I wont be alone in the plane for a long time once we acquire it (again, future planning, not any time soon)

3) I plan on doing all of my training here-on-out in the same 172SP I've been using and the owner is allowing me to continue to rent the plane "post student" at a good rate with my instructor.  I need to learn how to fly into the controlled airspace around DC since my wife has family there; there are going to be a lot of XC flights with my instructor for that.

4) Planning on 300 ish hours before purchasing the Mooney, prior to which I want to do some significant transition training.  I'll be swapping over to a 182RG for the complex/HP training at the local FBO and using that for quite a while before even the transition.

Hope that clears up any worries.  What I'm more wondering is what I should be looking at (I'm a real stickler for details so i'll be pulling every airplane quirk to reference later and make sure is not present when I buy) and plan on spending a substantial time looking for the proper plane, whatever it may be.  The folks on here seemed very willing to recommend non Mooney planes as well on some posts which was very nice to see and as such I felt I could get a better opinion than on other sites where they seem to refer more within-the-brand.  

Also, I'm very risk averse in general (I'm the guy who scrubs his jump when the winds are bad or won't launch my paraglider when conditions are poor) despite some risky sports (skydiving, paramotoring and paragliding, etc).  The other good thing is that the plane will not be used for any time-sensitive travel, more for leisure trips.  I'll be flying commercial for anything time sensitive.  

 

Thanks for your input in advance. 

Edited August 25, 2016 by djkling

[GeorgePerry]

Turbo's are good planes, but I would also look at Ovations or a 310 hp Eagle. Here's a link to a healthy debate about the merits of each.

Also, here's a link to "mooney flyer" online mag.  Page 32 has links to Mooney type specific CFI's broken down by states.  http://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2016AugTMF.pdf

Lastly before you mentally commit to purchase one type of plane over the other...fly it.  I had a co-worker who was "set" on a cirrus until he flew it.  Then after weighing all the pros and cons decided a Ovation was a better fit for him.  Other's might want the CAPS system so the Cirrus is right for them.  Also you might want to consider the A36 Bonanza.  All good planes it just comes down to what you prefer for your mission and "desirements"

[kortopates]

I transition trained a recent PPL to the 231. It took quite awhile, much longer than it should have. Mainly because the guy was a very busy business owner. Most weeks we flew once, and occasionally twice or not at all. When he was ready to be signed off I felt he had likely done twice the hours he should have needed. But a significant reason for extra time was that he never learned cross wind landings in his private and he really learned them for the first time in the Mooney. I insisted on proficiency in them in part because his planned frequent destinations required it (desert south west). When he was done he was good at them and knew his aircraft systems and all his equipment as well as the emergency procedures - which is a giant leap from the simple C172.

Find yourself a good Mooney specific instructor that knows turbo's in your area and work with him. Turbo knowledge is critical too so that the instructor can teach you how to properly manage the engine to improve longevity.

My other suggestion is to take your time because your "needs" so to speak will change drastically as you advance and become more experienced. So your more experienced pilot partner will actually be a huge asset in helping to guide you.

I am 252 owner.

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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, DJK.

Keep training and gaining experience.   Your current experience will be enhanced with long X-country experience.

Fuel management and weather decisions become increasingly more important over long distances and changing seasons.

Best regards,

-a-

[mooniac15u]

8 hours ago, djkling said:

Hey guys, New to the forums so a little background:

I'm 38 about to finish my private pilot license and then will be jumping rather quickly into my instrument rating.  I'm a doc and have a very good friend who is a former airline pilot who went into nursing and we are considering going in on a plane together.  I have been nosing around several planes that all fit my XC type flying (I spent most of my adult life in Reno, NV and now live in New Hampshire, and wife wants to be able to travel the country and maybe someday outside) and settled into the SR22, Cessna P210, Mooney M20K 252 (or the 305) conversion, or the Maule MX-T-7 series.  After talking with my friend he really wants to get a Mooney.  Mostly he hates composite airplanes like the SR22 and thinks the P210 will be a lot of maintenance and issues (he had a T210 and is an A&P and seen many problems over time with it).  The 231 has some finicky bits with the fixed waste gate and overboosting so the 252 or 305 conversion seemed the best bang-for-buck and safety profile.  

Some things we were trying to figure out: I haven't ever flown one and he hasn't flown one for about 15 years.  Is there any transition training programmes for mooney pilots? I realize I'm still about a year out from purchase with my instrument rating and getting complex/HP endorsements but that also means I need to start saving.  

Are there other aircraft (Mooney or other) that I should be looking for in the $125-$175k range?  I could go higher if needed but that is a sweet spot in my budget. What is after the 252 in terms of the M20's and are they any "better"?

Thanks for hearing out all my very pedestrian questions but I'm trying to get some real world answers from people who fly these planes since (and please dont kill me here) I had never heard of Mooney until my friend brought them up.  I did read the entire other thread on this after searching and 15 pages in I see many of the issues so to patch some up:

1) will be plodding though instrument ratings since my instructor right now is a major fan of "fly IFR plans everywhere, its a better way when you're going far"

2) Between my co-buyer and my instructor I wont be alone in the plane for a long time once we acquire it (again, future planning, not any time soon)

3) I plan on doing all of my training here-on-out in the same 172SP I've been using and the owner is allowing me to continue to rent the plane "post student" at a good rate with my instructor.  I need to learn how to fly into the controlled airspace around DC since my wife has family there; there are going to be a lot of XC flights with my instructor for that.

4) Planning on 300 ish hours before purchasing the Mooney, prior to which I want to do some significant transition training.  I'll be swapping over to a 182RG for the complex/HP training at the local FBO and using that for quite a while before even the transition.

Hope that clears up any worries.  What I'm more wondering is what I should be looking at (I'm a real stickler for details so i'll be pulling every airplane quirk to reference later and make sure is not present when I buy) and plan on spending a substantial time looking for the proper plane, whatever it may be.  The folks on here seemed very willing to recommend non Mooney planes as well on some posts which was very nice to see and as such I felt I could get a better opinion than on other sites where they seem to refer more within-the-brand.  

Also, I'm very risk averse in general (I'm the guy who scrubs his jump when the winds are bad or won't launch my paraglider when conditions are poor) despite some risky sports (skydiving, paramotoring and paragliding, etc).  The other good thing is that the plane will not be used for any time-sensitive travel, more for leisure trips.  I'll be flying commercial for anything time sensitive.  

 

Thanks for your input in advance. 

 

How many hours do you have now?  You say you want 300 hours before purchasing and also that you are about a year out from purchase.

You mention the 305 (Rocket) and "safety profile" in the same sentence.  The 305 could be a lot of plane for a low-time pilot.  We recently lost a well-regarded Mooneyspace member in his 305 Rocket.  He was a low-time pilot.

I'm not trying to discourage you from a Mooney purchase.  Just be aware of what you are getting into and the risks involved.

[DonMuncy]

I'm sure every brand of plane owners are partial to their own, and partial to their particular model as well. But from your description of your mission, I think a Mooney is an excellent choice. In my opinion, the 252 is probably about the best overall Mooney (I have a 231). Not the fastest, cheapest to operate, best payload, or most efficient overall, but I think probably the best mix of all.  

[Robert C.]

Welcome DJ!

Another turbo to consider is the Mooney Bravo, the long-body that came after the earlier models and before the Acclaim; might be at the high end of your range but has a good rep.

My 2c on transition training.... when it was my time to become a Mooney (Ovation 3) owner I had 150hrs. I engaged an instructor for a 10 day combined IFR and transition training course. After 10 days I had my IFR ticket and 50 hrs in the Mooney with multiple landings and take-offs each day (key element to safely flying your Mooney).

You'll spend as much ($) on those 10 days as you would over several months doing it all piece meal and it takes away most of the scheduling and weather vagaries associated with the weekend flying route. So my advice: find your dream plane, buy it, then spend 10 days getting to know her

Fly safe

Robert

[djkling]

Hello all and THANK YOU! for all this.

I'll try to reply to everyone here in a go so far...

I didn't mean safety as much on the 305 per se as being an "incredibly safe and forgiving plane".  Lets face it, this is a high performance airplane.  I wouldn't put a new driver in my Tesla S or Ferrari and say its "safe".  With that in mind I meant more safer to operate in terms of the waste gate and not ruining the engine.  Safer for the plane I guess is what I mean.  Sorry for not being clear.  In no way do I consider the Mooney "safer" than say a 172, but at the end of the day I also don't drive a Yugo to commute to work.  But the sentiment is very much appreciated there and thank you. I'm sorry about the lost pilot. That is awful.  Fortunately for the foreseeable future any Mooney flying will be done with a mooney trainer and then my CFI or my ATP friend who combined have probably well over 10,000 hours.  Like I said, I'm risk averse as much as someone who flies can be. 

Next... I want a Mooney specific instructor for sure.  So does my former ATP friend.  We both want to take a week and take a man-cation to a place that can train us preferably on the model in question. With that in mind, I want to get my IR and maybe even some retractable gear time prior to that.  I do not want to get "everything new" at once.  Last year I bought a new paraglider and new paramotor; throttle in right hand instead of left, reflex wing over standard, heavy 4-stroke motor, under seat reserve... everything was new.  Know what I did? Put a line through the prop.  Yes, its only a $15 mistake, but it was the principle that too many changes at once was not good.  I want to get proficient in the 172 to the point that safety and flying are routine; then get my IR until IFR flying is routine.  I don't plan on flying in IMC if i can avoid it (which normally one can) but if I end up VMC->IMC becuase something went wrong I want to know I can deal with it.  Or at least be able to get out of it.

right now I'm at 50 hours to whom asked.  Although technically I have met all my requirements, I am going a couple mock-check-rides, few more solo and dual XC flights, and going to space it to about 65-70 hours I think.  I'm not in a rush and honestly... the cost isn't an issue.  My CFI is a nice guy, and he wants to just do some flying after my license and start my IR when ready.  He flies executives around so he has an open schedule which makes it easy to get a lesson on a random day every week.  

Oh, and I do plan on trying to get some time in a Mooney (thus the instruction) prior to purchase.  The only disadvantage is I'm not sure it will be the same model but I assume I can get a fair sense from say... 231 vs 253 vs Bravo?  I think there are some body length differences and such but I wouldnt buy a car without having driven one either, and everyone in the "fabric wing" world always test jumps/flies gear before they buy it.  Its very routine.  

 

I think that is all I have so far for replies.  I'll hit those resources.  I'm very methodical and slow so this process may take a year, it may take 2, before I'm even at the point of selecting a plane.  Right now its find options, get all the training possible, fly the heck out of the school plane(s), get VFR and IFR flying to "second nature", and then get into one of my own.  I have a lot of responsibility with my job, mymarriage, my animal rescue... I can't be stupid, and that's why I'm picking all your collective brains  

[carusoam]

DJK,

You're gonna be here a while...

update your avatar, post some pictures, and find the recent threads written by Richard and Sam Husk, two guys nearing the end of their training.

Their first person description of training is well written, interesting and informative.

Let us know if you need help finding anything...

Best regards,

-a-

[djkling]

26 minutes ago, carusoam said:

DJK,

You're gonna be here a while...

update your avatar, post some pictures, and find the recent threads written by Richard and Sam Husk, two guys nearing the end of their training.

Their first person description of training is well written, interesting and informative.

Let us know if you need help finding anything...

Best regards,

-a-

On it

[Drew_Wagner]

I am a fairly new M20J owner, 150hr pilot, and I would highly recommend doing your instrument training in the airplane you plan to fly. I have put about 40 hours on 201XX since I purchased in mid May and done around 20 hours of instrument training in it. Definitely budget around $10K+/- additional for desired upgrades and squawks (I did an annual, installed a GTX 345/Flightstream 210 when I purchased for around $10AMUs), its just part of owning an airplane. I got my PPL around 2 years ago and intentionally waited until I bought my Mooney to begin instrument training specifically for the reasons you mentioned of consistency and having a comfort level with what I planned on flying long term. So much of instrument training is knowing power settings and how the plane will react with different control inputs and flying a Mooney vs 172 is night and day (low wing vs high wing, power/speed management since the plane is so slippery, retractable gear, prop control, importance of engine management). I found a great fellow Mooney CFII owner & instructor here in Charleston, SC who has been a pleasure to work with.

If you are serious about flying and will put as many hours as you are describing (goal of 250 additional hours and perhaps a purchase in the next 12-24 months), you will be dropping close to $40,000 flying someone else's plane @ $160/hr for a 172 and more for a 182 (not including instructor). I think there is a tremendous amount of value in learning in what you will fly in and economically you will end up about the same or better if you find a well maintained plane and pull the trigger now. Plus to me there is nothing more satisfying than opening up that hangar and knowing that airplane is all mine and not having to worry if the plane is available or if I will have to pay minimums for a multi-day trip. I would love to move up to a bigger and faster Mooney one day, and I know that my experience in my J will make that transition much more fluid since all M20 Mooneys are based on essentially the same airframe with slightly different lengths. No better time to buy than now. Just my 2 Cents!

Edited August 26, 2016 by Drew_Wagner

[carusoam]

Hmmm...

depending on priorities.

1) it is good to train in the plane you always fly.  If you can.

2) waiting to train for your IFR may not be the safest or efficient way to fly X-country...

 

I would not enjoy putting off important training to be that much more efficient.

The training world has generated opportunities to really get to know your plane after you buy it.  They call it transition training.  

MAPA also has a training program called PPP that allows Mooney pilots to hone their piloting skills.  Taught by Mooney specific CFIIs in your plane.

 

Once you decide to get your IR, don't wait just to gain small savings in efficiency... (Key thing here is the decision to get the IR)

If you intend to fly X-country over days, it is best to have the IR.

PP thoughts, not a CFI...

Some things to consider,

-a-

[gsengle]

Definitely consider early Ovations at that budget number. Where are ya in NH, I'm based in Western MA with my 96 Ovation, and many of us are heading to Manchester in Sept for Mooney Saftey training...

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[Drew_Wagner]

I agree that it depends largely on your mission and location. I'm in the southeast and most of my flying is within 2-3 hours and my schedule is fairly flexible. I have had very few VFR limitations since I have had the plane. I only delayed beginning my IR by about 4 months while I was looking for the right bird. I am looking forward to continued eduction by attending Mooney events and recurrent training.

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[carusoam]

I get it...  

This writing thing is missing some of the technical detail found in verbal conversation.

I waited a decade before going to get the IR.  Four months is like a long weekend, at my age... (Not really waiting, it goes by so fast)

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Flash]

On 8/24/2016 at 10:40 PM, djkling said:

I need to learn how to fly into the controlled airspace around DC since my wife has family there; there are going to be a lot of XC flights with my instructor for that.

Flying in and around DC is not especially challenging. There is free, mandatory online training available here. You will be fine if you: (1) know the procedures (they aren't all that complicated, and can mostly be summed up as, "Get your squawk code" and "Maintain that squawk code at all times while flying within the SFRA"), and (2) have enough experience/ability that you can stay ahead of the airplane so that you don't bust the SFRA (Special Flight Rules Area) or the Class B airspace because you got distracted by something and lost your situational awareness. If you can fly in the Boston and New York areas, DC will not be much more difficult (though the SFRA, the three Class B surface areas, the restricted airspace not far outside the Class B, and the Camp David prohibited area do require your respect).  . 

If you're going to be flying to DC often, it may be worth it to go through the procedures to be vetted for flight into the Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ). That would let you land at College Park, the airport most convenient to the Metro, or at Hyde or Potomac. I used to be based at College Park and highly recommend it. If you're interested, check out the Website.

Enjoy your flying, and keep us posted.

Flash

[djkling]

13 hours ago, gsengle said:

Definitely consider early Ovations at that budget number. Where are ya in NH, I'm based in Western MA with my 96 Ovation, and many of us are heading to Manchester in Sept for Mooney Saftey training...

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I'm in Chester, do my training out of KASH (Nashua) but am right next to Manchester (well, 20 minutes).  I didn't know anything specific was going on! SOunds fun!  I'll take a look at the Ovations as well then!

[djkling]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Flying in and around DC is not especially challenging. There is free, mandatory online training available here. You will be fine if you: (1) know the procedures (they aren't all that complicated, and can mostly be summed up as, "Get your squawk code" and "Maintain that squawk code at all times while flying within the SFRA"), and (2) have enough experience/ability that you can stay ahead of the airplane so that you don't bust the SFRA (Special Flight Rules Area) or the Class B airspace because you got distracted by something and lost your situational awareness. If you can fly in the Boston and New York areas, DC will not be much more difficult (though the SFRA, the three Class B surface areas, the restricted airspace not far outside the Class B, and the Camp David prohibited area do require your respect).  .

If you're going to be flying to DC often, it may be worth it to go through the procedures to be vetted for flight into the Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ). That would let you land at College Park, the airport most convenient to the Metro, or at Hyde or Potomac. I used to be based at College Park and highly recommend it. If you're interested, check out the Website.

Enjoy your flying, and keep us posted.

Flash

Yeah the FRZ/SFRA is going to be something I need to get used to.  Unfortunately I have limited Bravo training so far; I have to figure out when I depart Suburban how I get clearance through Bravo AND the SFRA/FRZ.  Its going to be interesting for sure. That is why I plan on heading in with my CFI, he used to fly a Pilatus out of... I think its Ft Meade? just south of BWI, so he was in the same situation and has done it MANY times, thus we will do a few runs.  It will be presumably easier with an IR since we can do an IFR flight plan which seems like it would make more sense.  It is a busy place, but I can't help where family lives

Staying ahead of the airplane is not an easy task... I hope with another 50-100 hours it should be easier, i'll be hitting the Boston Bravo a few times to transit to Cape Cod and the Vineyard just to practice.  Still much to learn... so much to learn..

[djkling]

12 hours ago, Drew_Wagner said:

I agree that it depends largely on your mission and location. I'm in the southeast and most of my flying is within 2-3 hours and my schedule is fairly flexible. I have had very few VFR limitations since I have had the plane. I only delayed beginning my IR by about 4 months while I was looking for the right bird. I am looking forward to continued eduction by attending Mooney events and recurrent training.

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how do you guys locate the continuing ed and mooney recurrent training places?

[Drew_Wagner]

12 hours ago, Drew_Wagner said: I agree that it depends largely on your mission and location. I'm in the southeast and most of my flying is within 2-3 hours and my schedule is fairly flexible. I have had very few VFR limitations since I have had the plane. I only delayed beginning my IR by about 4 months while I was looking for the right bird. I am looking forward to continued eduction by attending Mooney events and recurrent training.

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how do you guys locate the continuing ed and mooney recurrent training places?

MAPA is a great resource and produces an excellent magazine.

http://www.mooneypilots.com/calendar.htm

The Mooney summit is a non profit that helps downed pilots and focuses on education.

http://www.mooneysummit.com

Mooney Flyer. They list upcoming events in the publication. The Mooney Flyer is definitely worth subscribing to and reading.

http://www.themooneyflyer.com

A list of events:

http://www.mooneyevents.com

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[gsengle]

Yes go take a mapa ppp course... I'll be at the one in Manchester NH in a few weeks.

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[Bob_Belville]

Just now, gsengle said:

Yes go take a mapa ppp course... I'll be at the one in Manchester NH in a few weeks.

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I believe you need to be a member of MAPA to take the PPP. MAPA membership gets you the MAPALog which promotes the clinics around the country as well as other activities like the annual convention in Kerrville in October. (I'll be @ Manchester in a couple of weeks also! also Kerrville 10/19-23, also Mooney Summit @ KECP 9/29-10/2, D.V. It's really smart to spend $1000 on training and continuing ed to save $100 on insurance.)

[N9201A]

I would encourage trying formation flying. I was a 25-year pilot, CFI-l, ATP with type ratings and 10 years as a 201 owner. So I thought I knew how to fly my Mooney...until I discovered what I didn't know. I love learning--my CFI-I check ride was with a legend who bombed the Musashi, and seven questions in after "let's talk about airspeed" I was mush. Like that experience, form flying is a steep but rewarding learning curve. But, it's highly addictive!!


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[carusoam]

Must have been Interesting days flying around Musashi...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Musashi

Best regards,

-a-

[N9201A]

On 8/11/2017 at 6:13 PM, carusoam said:

Must have been Interesting days flying around Musashi...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Musashi

Best regards,

-a-

The examiner was something of a legend in Southern California.  His office had two things in it besides a desk and two chairs:  One was a picture of an SB2C diving on the biggest battleship ever built, visible in the photo, with flak puffs all over.  I asked "is that the Yamato?"  "Musashi!" he barked, "it's me, my wingman took it!"