Landing Flaps

[Jim F]

Full flaps every time, good speed control, hold it off till it won't fly, contact flaps up. If I float the first third go around.  

My home field is kind of short 1800ft

IFR, the approach half flaps, at DA I don't change anything so landing with half flaps  

Jim

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

So it seems that you are saying you have more control with no flaps? Less chance of a gust doing something you are not expecting?  In the spring in Texas around the coast it is gusty with cross winds almost all spring.  So you would be landing no flaps most of the time.  July and August would be the two calmer months of the year

No, what I'm saying is that additional speed provides additional control authority because of the additional airflow over the control surfaces. So if I find myself in a strong crosswind (strong is subjective, that means >10kts component for me) I'll fly the approach faster. I do it sans flaps so that the plane will stall at a higher airspeed. This minimizes the time spent in what I'll call the "zone of minimum control" which is that transition from using control surfaces for control to using tires for control. Not enough airspeed for real control authority but fast enough to not be firmly planted on the rubber.  No matter how I'm configured, my goal is always to minimize the time spent in that zone as I believe it's the reason for most RLOC accidents.

On windy, gusty days, I land full flaps if the wind is primarily down the runway. I will fly the approach at a faster airspeed until very short final counting on my headwind to reduce my GS enough to deliver me at the threshold at 1.2Vso. A number of the airports that I fly into have potential for weird wind effects and shear. I want as much stall margin as practical under those conditions.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, DAVIDWH said:

The bounces will be higher with full flaps. With our longer runways, partial

flaps with a little extra airspeed, more control and Louder squeaks. 

I think a lot is just personal preference. For me, its gear down, 1/2 flaps and for a little extra stability, speed brakes deployed. 

I fully understand that gear up approaches decrease landing roll significantly for those shorter runways. Again, personnel preference.

best

If the wing is not significantly above flying when the wheels hit it really shouldn't bounce. Maybe a skip. Bounces are caused by excess airspeed. It matters not if it is pilot or gust induced. It takes a lot of energy to lift 2000+lbs into the air.

[Ftlausa]

Since doing my instrument training, I mostly use partial flaps, but still occasionally do full flap landings. The plane will do a full stall landing fine either way. 

Heavy cross wind, no or partial flap.  The rudder authority gets lost pretty quick when you are slow and fighting a stiff cross-wind.    

[jlunseth]

I have over a thousand hours in my 231 now, and around a thousand landings.  They have been in all kinds of conditions, including strips as short as 2300 and grass strips.  That said, there are certainly people on here with more Mooney time that me.  But to me, gear and flaps are drag mechanisms not lift mechanisms.  Flaps are lift mechanisms only when you don't want them to be, which is right above the runway. I use gear and flaps to slow the plane down only, and to keep it within the speed envelope I want.

I almost never land with full flaps.  I do that only if I need to make a performance, short landing of some kind, and I need to bring the speed down close to stall.  For a "normal" runway, tarmac and at least 3,000 feet I land with half flaps.  My "formula" is 90 kts on downwind past the numbers, 85 in the base to final (happens to be about best glide), 80-85 on final, 75 over the fence with the runway made, and I may let the speed deteriorate to 70 during the "runway made" portion of the descent.  

I fly almost always in some kind of gusty crosswind conditions because I live in the midwest.  Full flaps will give me a balloon or bounce virtually every time in those conditions, and a balloon is not what you want in gusts.  Half flaps puts the plane nicely on the runway without a balloon.

I use no flaps about as often as I use full flaps.  No flaps are for conditions that are very gusty and where the gusts are, or may be, scraping the ground.  (You never know until you get there).  What I mean by that, is that very often in gusty crosswind conditions you will find that everything evens out right above the runway because of ground friction and there is not much crosswind, but I have also found myself landing in conditions where the cattails next to the runway are bent over at the ground and those gusts are worse right on the runway than they were on final.  For that stuff, I need extra speed for rudder authority, I fly the plane down to the ground, and with no flaps I get no bounce or balloon.  I have done landings with no flaps at TAS as high as 90, flying the plane right down to the ground and pulling the power.  Your TAS may be 90, but because of the 20 knot headwind component your ground speed is 70, so once on the ground rollout is normal except for having to fight the crosswind fairly hard with steering.

[Hank]

8 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I have over a thousand hours in my 231 now, and around a thousand landings.  They have been in all kinds of conditions, including strips as short as 2300 and grass strips.  That said, there are certainly people on here with more Mooney time that me.  But to me, gear and flaps are drag mechanisms not lift mechanisms.  Flaps are lift mechanisms only when you don't want them to be, which is right above the runway. I use gear and flaps to slow the plane down only, and to keep it within the speed envelope I want.

I almost never land with full flaps.  I do that only if I need to make a performance, short landing of some kind, and I need to bring the speed down close to stall.  For a "normal" runway, tarmac and at least 3,000 feet I land with half flaps.  My "formula" is 90 kts on downwind past the numbers, 85 in the base to final (happens to be about best glide), 80-85 on final, 75 over the fence with the runway made, and I may let the speed deteriorate to 70 during the "runway made" portion of the descent.  

I fly almost always in some kind of gusty crosswind conditions because I live in the midwest.  Full flaps will give me a balloon or bounce virtually every time in those conditions, and a balloon is not what you want in gusts.  Half flaps puts the plane nicely on the runway without a balloon.

I use no flaps about as often as I use full flaps.  No flaps are for conditions that are very gusty and where the gusts are, or may be, scraping the ground.  (You never know until you get there).  What I mean by that, is that very often in gusty crosswind conditions you will find that everything evens out right above the runway because of ground friction and there is not much crosswind, but I have also found myself landing in conditions where the cattails next to the runway are bent over at the ground and those gusts are worse right on the runway than they were on final.  For that stuff, I need extra speed for rudder authority, I fly the plane down to the ground, and with no flaps I get no bounce or balloon.  I have done landings with no flaps at TAS as high as 90, flying the plane right down to the ground and pulling the power.  Your TAS may be 90, but because of the 20 knot headwind component your ground speed is 70, so once on the ground rollout is normal except for having to fight the crosswind fairly hard with steering.

We share a common philosophy and practice, even the same numbers (except mine are in mph).

[Yetti]

What Hank quoted.  I landed with my Dad once with full flaps in gusty conditions and he said "What was that?"  I said playing with full flaps landing. He said "Don't do that again"

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

What Hank quoted.  I landed with my Dad once with full flaps in gusty conditions and he said "What was that?"  I said playing with full flaps landing. He said "Don't do that again"

Are you attributing whatever caused your father's disapproval to using full flaps?   Me thinks it might have been something else.

[jlunseth]

I have tried to figure out why we have some adamant full flaps pilots and some equally adamant half flaps people.  First, I assume that all are very good pilots and that the technique they use works fine for them.  One thing I have noticed is differences in aircraft.  I have flown a J and now have a K, and that J was quite a bit lighter and more prone to float than my K.  If I am a little high on final and cut the throttle I can count on the K dropping, and having to put some power in at some point to pick it back up.  That J would never notice a throttle cut on final, and would overfly the airport.  I don't honestly know if it was an "old" J (before the gross weight increase) or a "new" one.  But deploying drag sources in that plane was more important than in my K.

My 231 also has a small rudder.  The demonstrated crosswind is 12 kts.  You read that right, its not 15, its not 17, its 12.  Now I know all the stuff about that begin just "demonstrated" and not a limit, but I think the POH and the factory are telling us 231 drivers we have a small rudder.  I am insulted.  I have never had any complaints about my rudder.  But on topic, my rudder needs more authority on some occasions, and my way of giving it that authority is land with more speed, which needs less flaps.  And, by the way, I have read Don Kaye's landing stuff and it sounds like he does pretty much the same thing.

But I am not sure the aircraft is the difference because I see quite alot of C and F drivers on both sides,

It might be location.  There are some days here and out in the Dakotas when landing full flaps works just fine.  Today is a "normal" day too though, and we have winds at about 19 G 35 and 20 degrees off any runway at my home field.  We have quite a few 15G25 days.  I think for me, that is what influences it.  I have just a few attempted landings burned into my memory where I tried full flaps in strong winds and had to do a scary go around after bouncing through the runway edge lights, but the second, zero flaps landing went smoothly.  So I just don't even try full flaps anymore, not ever knowing exactly what the conditions will be right above the runway, not unless the conditions are plainly dead still and I need more drag.  Someone who lives and flies routinely and in "quieter" conditions would feel differently.

At any rate, I would not hesitate to fly with any of you guys.  Even if your flaps were hanging down.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I have tried to figure out why we have some adamant full flaps pilots and some equally adamant half flaps people.  First, I assume that all are very good pilots and that the technique they use works fine for them.  One thing I have noticed is differences in aircraft.  I have flown a J and now have a K, and that J was quite a bit lighter and more prone to float than my K.  If I am a little high on final and cut the throttle I can count on the K dropping, and having to put some power in at some point to pick it back up.  That J would never notice a throttle cut on final, and would overfly the airport.  I don't honestly know if it was an "old" J (before the gross weight increase) or a "new" one.  But deploying drag sources in that plane was more important than in my K.

My 231 also has a small rudder.  The demonstrated crosswind is 12 kts.  You read that right, its not 15, its not 17, its 12.  Now I know all the stuff about that begin just "demonstrated" and not a limit, but I think the POH and the factory are telling us 231 drivers we have a small rudder.  I am insulted.  I have never had any complaints about my rudder.  But on topic, my rudder needs more authority on some occasions, and my way of giving it that authority is land with more speed, which needs less flaps.  And, by the way, I have read Don Kaye's landing stuff and it sounds like he does pretty much the same thing.

But I am not sure the aircraft is the difference because I see quite alot of C and F drivers on both sides,

It might be location.  There are some days here and out in the Dakotas when landing full flaps works just fine.  Today is a "normal" day too though, and we have winds at about 19 G 35 and 20 degrees off any runway at my home field.  We have quite a few 15G25 days.  I think for me, that is what influences it.  I have just a few attempted landings burned into my memory where I tried full flaps in strong winds and had to do a scary go around after bouncing through the runway edge lights, but the second, zero flaps landing went smoothly.  So I just don't even try full flaps anymore, not ever knowing exactly what the conditions will be right above the runway, not unless the conditions are plainly dead still and I need more drag.  Someone who lives and flies routinely and in "quieter" conditions would feel differently.

At any rate, I would not hesitate to fly with any of you guys.  Even if your flaps were hanging down.

Your K has 160lbs higher gross than my F (and most Js). What's your empty weight? Do you have a 3 bladed prop? If I'm too fast, plane will float regardless of weight. The right speed for 2600lbs is too fast for 2100lbs.  I could fly final at 85kts but I don't know why I would. I think a lot of folks like to fly a shallow final with power on. Then over the runway power off with just enough flare to hold the wheels off until it stops flying (sometime in the next 1000ft or so of runway.

 I prefer steeper approaches with the power off. The flare is more pronounced and uses up more of the excess energy from the descent.  

[MyNameIsNobody]

17 hours ago, Yetti said:

What Hank quoted.  I landed with my Dad once with full flaps in gusty conditions and he said "What was that?"  I said playing with full flaps landing. He said "Don't do that again"

I have a dog that is 8.  To this day if I turn on the gas fireplace he cowers and slithers out of the room.  Apparently as a pup he was scared when the flame fired and will not let go of that fear.  I would like to think Wookies are smarter than me dog, but that statement is a heads scratcher.  Really?  One F'd up landing in the wind on a certain day and it is an absolute No No?  Pffft.  

Edited April 2, 2016 by MyNameIsNobody

[jlunseth]

I have not had an F'd up landing in winds in awhile because I stopped using full flaps, but they are fairly dramatic.  I was not kidding about bouncing through the runway edge lights.  

Ross my basic empty weight is 1919 and my max. weight is 2900.  I have a two blade.  I like the low, flat approach especially if I am trying to do a short field landing.  I will typically be "three reds" on the PAPI on short final and probably all four when I am over the fence.  

[Yetti]

hmm my POH says half flaps before turning base and final.  Then flaps as needed.  Seems like full flaps would cause more float.  "For maxing braking effect, raise the flaps and apply back pressure on the control wheel as you apply brakes"

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Yetti said:

hmm my POH says half flaps before turning base and final.  Then flaps as needed.  Seems like full flaps would cause more float.  "For maxing braking effect, raise the flaps and apply back pressure on the control wheel as you apply brakes"

Use caution raising the flaps on roll out.  It wouldn't be the first time it was the gear not the flaps.  

Clarence

[Yetti]

I left that there, since everyone is taught it is bad form. If you did not go to full flaps then looks like you have better braking action.  About the only thing I touch besides the brake and dynamic braking from full elevator is reach over and pop the door open.   

[Hank]

Just now, Yetti said:

I left that there, since everyone is taught it is bad form. If you did not go to full flaps then looks like you have better braking action.  About the only thing I touch besides the brake and dynamic braking from full elevator is reach over and pop the door open.   

I don't reach across the cabin to open the door until after I exit the runway or turn around to back taxi--either way, I'm moving slowly. But I do reach out one finger while holding the throttle to idle and press the Flap switch to "Up." It helps put weight on the wheels earlier, for better braking. But I also don't brake hard to make an early turnoff, mostly because many of the places I go to have so few turnoffs.

[Shadrach]

33 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Use caution raising the flaps on roll out.  It wouldn't be the first time it was the gear not the flaps.  

Clarence

Tough mistake to make in a Mooney due to switch placement. Tougher in a manual gear bird. Pretty easy to do in a lot of older Bonanzas!

[gsxrpilot]

I'm certainly in the "retract flaps before brakes" camp. It's impossible to confuse flaps for gear in my manual gear C. And you certainly have more weight on the wheels after retracting flaps then before.

[Shadrach]

51 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I left that there, since everyone is taught it is bad form. If you did not go to full flaps then looks like you have better braking action.  About the only thing I touch besides the brake and dynamic braking from full elevator is reach over and pop the door open.  

If you're using full aft elevator right after touchdown, you've revised your SOP from the videos I saw.

Proper full flap landings result in slower approach speeds, slower touchdown speeds and the shortest landing distances. These are facts, not opinion. I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to land their plane this way, folks should do as they please as long as it affects no one else. However, suggesting that you get higher performance landings using some other configuration is a losing argument.  If you have developed a method that you like better, great, but physics is not so whimsical as to make the subjective become objective.

 

[Yetti]

I would guess if the winds had a objective SOP then I would have one too.   My SOP is to be "airline smooth".  Landing wise my routine pretty much mirrors the POH.  In the last 6 months I don't think we have had the same winds twice.  The 4 area airports are all reporting different winds and on my bike ride the winds shifted mid ride, so I had to beat upwind on the bike for the long stretch which I try to plan as a tailwind.