MX costs for Bravo

[manoflamancha]

I am shopping for a 1990-1994 Mooney Bravo and wanted to gather average yearly operating costs to budget for fuel, insurance and MX. I know the TIO-540 Lycoming is an expensive engine so wanted to gather realistic budget to put aside after purchase.

 

Scott

[Godfather]

How many hours do you want to fly a year?  How many flight hours do you currently have?  As a WAG I'd say 10k for fixed expenses and 15k for the rest per year and probably close to 50k for a good overhaul...again a WAG.

[manoflamancha]

Right now I am planning 50-100 hours a year since I want to finish advanced ratings and do some traveling across the country. I have 280 hours right now and half way through my instrument rating. I plan to finish my instrument and commercial ratings in the plane. I know the transition to a much faster plane like the Bravo has its quirks coming from flying Piper Arrows and Cessna 172RG but hopefully with a good Mooney instructor it is possible. I looked at older Bonanzas but for 100-150k, a Mooney Bravo seems to offer the best performance bang for the buck on the market right now.

 

Scott

[carqwik]

Figure it this way...20 gph x the number of hours x avg gas price = your annual fuel cost.  By example then, 20x100x$4.50 = $9,000 for fuel alone.  Annual will vary but using a top shop figure anywhere from $5k to $10k annually.  It's not a fixed price since there's always something to fix or overhaul or replace....like shock disks, brakes, mags, O2 bottle, etc.  So we're already at close to $20k per year...and then there's the timed or untimed & unexpected stuff like AI overhaul, alternator R/R, oil changes (every 25 hours or 4 months), etc.  So $25k per year is a good estimate. 

Engine O/H is a lot of money...kind of scary actually.

[manoflamancha]

That makes sense and I'd finance the new engine and pay cash for the Bravo. Still, considering that a new Ovation or Acclaim sell for close to 800k, the Bravo is way cheaper for similar performance and almost on par with far more expensive turboprops and twins. It would be nice to visit Montana and Vancouver on weekend trips.

[Awful_Charlie]

As mentioned in several other posts here, I fly at lower power and fuel flows that many Bravo owners, and looking back through my logs I see that my average flight time is 1:15 - many of my trips are a 2+ hour leg followed by a 10 minute hop (for the sake of customs), but over that time my average fuel burn per flight hour is 16.2 USG/Hr.

Batteries for Aspen/Lifesaver/ELT eat up cash, other big consumers are the O2 cylinder replacement, oil & filters (every 25 hours), and in the last couple of years I've replaced both the ship batteries - the life of these seems to be highly variable, the last ones for me being around eight years, but others are replacing them maybe after only two. A defective TKS panel was more of a hit than I would like, and the infamous back spring is not cheap either.

I budget about €12k per year for fixed costs (hangar, insurance, Jeppesen, regular maintenance) which comes in about right but will vary depending on the deals you get, but an exhaust repair/turbo/O2 cylinder will possibly take you over. Maintenance can be variable depending on what you want to include too - do you expect to keep up with avionic/gadgets (eg ADSB/8.33kHz radios) and are you going to include a re-paint periodically?

[donkaye]

This has been discussed many, many times on this forum.  I have owned my Bravo for almost 24 years now and have been through one engine replacement, so I have a pretty good handle on long term costs.  Although expensive to maintain, they probably are no more expensive than any other plane of this type, and they are by far the greatest bargain in the marketplace today in my opinion.  Fixed costs to consider are: Hangar (these airplanes should be hangared), insurance, property taxes if applicable, annual (inspection only), reserve for engine replacement, O2 tank replacement, fuel tank reseal, interior replacement and painting, tires, and shock discs.  Variable costs include: Oil and filter changes every 25 hours, fuel, annual variable costs for repairs after inspection, unexpected maintenance, avionics upgrades.  If you have a Bravo whose serial number is below 27-107, then figure on new brake pads every 70 hours. Airplane ownership is not cheap, but for me overwhelmingly worth it. I live in the Bay Area.  Here are some of my representative annual costs of ownership:

Hangar: 6,500

Insurance: 2,800

Taxes: 2,000

Annual Inspection only costs: 2,700

Annual costs above inspection average: 4,000

Fuel at 4.50/gal, 18 gal/hour, 150 hours: 12,150

Unexpected maintenance if you are lucky (really to be expected): 6,000

So that comes to 36,150.  This doesn't include any reserves.  Expect a reman engine installed to cost 75, 000, a new O2 tank every 15 years 2,200 installed, controller and turbocharger overhaul once per engine TBO 2,500, tank reseal 12,000, and on and on.  Bottom line: Better keep some money in the bank, a lot of money.

Last year, after some oil on the hangar floor, it turns out 2 cylinders needed new intake valve guides so needed to be overhauled: $5,000.  After nearly 24 years I finally got tired of replacing brake pads every 70 hours at $400 a pop including fuel to Top Gun, so proactively bought the upgraded gear kit.  Installed $10,000.  Oh, and replaced the Plessey gear actuator (you don't want to hear the price) because the back springs are no longer manufactured.  Do not buy a Bravo unless the actuator is not a Plessey or discount it by at least $15,000.  And then there was the optional panel upgrade to the most sophisticated Mooney in the fleet at this time including all Acclaims (no TKS)--also not talking about that one.

PS  One thing you can do to mitigate the expenses if you really like flying and some adventure is to become a Mooney Specific Flight Instructor.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

This has been discussed many, many times on this forum.  I have owned my Bravo for almost 24 years now and have been through one engine replacement, so I have a pretty good handle on long term costs.  Although expensive to maintain, they probably are no more expensive than any other plane of this type, and they are by far the greatest bargain in the marketplace today in my opinion.  Fixed costs to consider are: Hangar (these airplanes should be hangared), insurance, property taxes if applicable, annual (inspection only), reserve for engine replacement, O2 tank replacement, fuel tank reseal, interior replacement and painting, tires, and shock discs.  Variable costs include: Oil and filter changes every 25 hours, fuel, annual variable costs for repairs after inspection, unexpected maintenance, avionics upgrades.  If you have a Bravo whose serial number is below 27-107, then figure on new brake pads every 70 hours. Airplane ownership is not cheap, but for me overwhelmingly worth it. I live in the Bay Area.  Here are some of my representative annual costs of ownership:

Hangar: 6,500

Insurance: 2,800

Taxes: 2,000

Annual Inspection only costs: 2,700

Annual costs above inspection average: 4,000

Fuel at 4.50/gal, 18 gal/hour, 150 hours: 12,150

Unexpected maintenance if you a lucky (really to be expected): 6,000

So that comes to 36,150.  This doesn't include any reserves.  Expect a reman engine installed to cost 75, 000, a new O2 tank every 15 years 2,200 installed, controller and turbocharger overhaul once per engine TBO 2,500, tank reseal 12,000, and on and on.  Bottom line: Better keep some money in the bank, a lot of money.

PS  One thing you can do to mitigate the expenses if you really like flying and some adventure is to become a Mooney Specific Flight Instructor.

 

Ouch!

Love my P brand!

Clarence

[Bravoman]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Ouch!

Love my P brand!

Clarence

You are right. I have a P too and it is like comparing a Chevy to a Ferrari on the mx costs! I gotta say I love my P too. Without it I would have nothing to fly right now...

Frank

[FlyDave]

The Bravo is a wonderful airplane and they can be purchased for a  lot less today than 2 years ago.

If you go to a MSC your annuals and maintenance will be more than a non-MSC mechanic - just make sure you have a good mechanic with some Mooney experience.

I do as much maintenance as I can myself - but not without input and sign off from my mechanic. I also source my own parts but often times with his assistance on PN's. The thing with mechanics is you have to establish a relationship. My mechanic knows I want to do as much work as I can but things that are out of my league he will do. He also knows that I don't expect something for nothing and I gladly pay him for inspections and a signature in the logbook. If he spends 10 minutes explaining something to me, I spend 4 hours doing the repairs and he spends 15 minutes inspecting and signing off on the work, I will gladly pay his shop rate for a couple of hours. This is still cheaper for me and I get to learn more about my airplane. He has decades of experience and knows what he's doing so I get the benefit of his experience and he gets paid a bit more without having to spend a lot of time.

Dave

 

[donkaye]

10 minutes ago, FlyDave said:

The Bravo is a wonderful airplane and they can be purchased for a  lot less today than 2 years ago.

If you go to a MSC your annuals and maintenance will be more than a non-MSC mechanic - just make sure you have a good mechanic with some Mooney experience.

I do as much maintenance as I can myself - but not without input and sign off from my mechanic. I also source my own parts but often times with his assistance on PN's. The thing with mechanics is you have to establish a relationship. My mechanic knows I want to do as much work as I can but things that are out of my league he will do. He also knows that I don't expect something for nothing and I gladly pay him for inspections and a signature in the logbook. If he spends 10 minutes explaining something to me, I spend 4 hours doing the repairs and he spends 15 minutes inspecting and signing off on the work, I will gladly pay his shop rate for a couple of hours. This is still cheaper for me and I get to learn more about my airplane. He has decades of experience and knows what he's doing so I get the benefit of his experience and he gets paid a bit more without having to spend a lot of time.

Dave

 

In my opinion Dave is the exception.  I personally want to fly my plane, not work on it.  In too many instances items were found by my experienced MSC that I don't think the non Mooney mechanic would have found.  Also, while some like to get into the nitty gritty of maintenance, time is all we have in life and there are other things I would rather be doing like flying and teaching in airplanes.

[manoflamancha]

Hi Don,

Great analysis of the actual real ownership costs of a Bravo. I'll consider all these factors. Hangars are expensive in San Diego as well and difficult to come by which is why I'm looking at buying a hangar airpark home. You'd be the go to guy for a Bravo transition training program. I'm half way thru my instrument rating and would finish it in the Bravo purchased so buying a well maintained one is critical. I'm the same way- I'd rather be flying than working on the plane however I'd want to do owner assisted annual to learn the plane better. It is the best high performance deal on the used airplane market right now. A fraction of what a used or new Acclaim or Cirrus cost with equal performance. 

 

Scott

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, manoflamancha said:

Hi Don,

Great analysis of the actual real ownership costs of a Bravo. I'll consider all these factors. Hangars are expensive in San Diego as well and difficult to come by which is why I'm looking at buying a hangar airpark home. You'd be the go to guy for a Bravo transition training program. I'm half way thru my instrument rating and would finish it in the Bravo purchased so buying a well maintained one is critical. I'm the same way- I'd rather be flying than working on the plane however I'd want to do owner assisted annual to learn the plane better. It is the best high performance deal on the used airplane market right now. A fraction of what a used or new Acclaim or Cirrus cost with equal performance. 

 

Scott

That's why I can do just about anything to my Bravo.  The cost spread for a slight difference in speed is just so much.  If you are interested in an upgraded Bravo that is not on the Market but could be shortly, send me a private email. (NO, it is NOT my airplane)