Hours on this plane??

[Cwalsh7997]

Hi guys as some of you know I've been looking for a mooney and I came across this one that I've seen for a while, the plane is beautiful but can you look at the hours because it has a SOH and then a SMOH and could you guys tell me how long the life would be for me and if worth to get?

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/2051616.html

[Mooneymite]

What is not said in this ad is probably more significant than what is described!

Three gear up incidents! 91, 92 &95......Gee!

I suspect those were the reason for the bottom overhauls. The top overhaul was just due to time on the cylinders. I would consider the engine at core value.

The basic airframe looks pretty decent with lots of Laser mods...assuming the belly was properly repaired. The radios are all old, so plan on spending a lot on upgrades.

This aircraft would warrant an extensive PPI including a very careful review of the logs.

[Yetti]

Engines are a crap shoot.   You make your bets and roll the dice.  run them till they make metal in the filter. differential compressions numbers are your friend here.   I would rather buy a not so working plane that you have to go through and then know the history rather than a working plane that you will find out its history.  With all those Laser mods at 5-10 knots each, it should do 300 mph.

[aaronk25]

In my opinion if a overhaul older than 10 years I price it as needing a engine. It's been shown across our fleet that rust and corrosion are major factors that kill more motors than hours.

[Shadrach]

I agree with Aaron.  Does not mean it needs to be overhauled, just that it needs to be priced as though it needs to be overhauled.  Gear up is not a deal killer (depending on how it was handled). I see one flight in its FA history. It flew from Baton Rouge to Tulsa last year. It looks like it was VFR fight following and they either had tremendous winds out of the Northwest, or the were keeping it very slow. Most of the flight was done a less than 115kts. 

 

Does anyone know if there is anyway to contact the FAA and request ferry permit request info by plane?

[Shadrach]

What is not said in this ad is probably more significant than what is described!

Three gear up incidents! 91, 92 &95......Gee!

I suspect those were the reason for the bottom overhauls. The top overhaul was just due to time on the cylinders. I would consider the engine at core value.

The basic airframe looks pretty decent with lots of Laser mods...assuming the belly was properly repaired. The radios are all old, so plan on spending a lot on upgrades.

This aircraft would warrant an extensive PPI including a very careful review of the logs.

 

Where did you find these?

 

Never mind! fine print!

[FloridaMan]

When it comes to major decisions like purchasing an airplane, especially as a new owner, never be afraid to walk away. 

 

My airplane had 1300, around 18 years SMOH and 20+ years of MSC maintenance. It flew between 50 and 100 hours a year and was clearly very well maintained. I am now 1900 SMOH and still going strong. 

 

At the time I purchased it, I was going through the process of buying a $40k M20F with a GNS430W that got sold out from under me. Mine showed up and was significantly more and I couldn't turn it down. Ironically, the M20F that I missed out on didn't sell because the buyer couldn't secure financing. 

 

I am partial to the 67F. They made a ton of them that year; they have the ultra-reliable mechanical gear; and their age is reflected in the price. 

 

Also, as far as life expectancy; I am 20 years and 1900 SMOH now and the engine is still going strong. I'm of the opinion that an engine with several hundred hours that is regularly flown and has consistent oil changes is a safer bet than a low time engine that sat or a "0" time engine with no warranty. 

[aaronk25]

One additional note. If a engine has flown 200 hours a year for past 3 years and there is no metal in filter (yes cut filter at pre-buy inspection) most likely you got a good engine.

The problem comes when a over haul is 5 years old and maybe flew a lot the first year but due to health, lack of interest ect the plane only flew 25 hours a year for the past 2 years. Think about a engine sitting for 8 weeks at a time without being started. All the oil runs off those shiny steel cylinders and cam shaft.

Lay a piece of shiny unprotected steel in a non-climate controlled shed for / months and it will be covered in a light rust (unless you live in the desert).

Then when the engine fires up it scrapes the rust off which takes a bit of steel with it creating pits. Well you know the deal when 2 pieces of rough metal run against each other wear is accelerated.

So then after a plane with little time in the last 2 years is bought the new owner flys the snot out of it, cause well, it's new and fun. In 18 months it needs a motor.

This can happen to even a 2 year old overhaul if it's not run often.

This happens in aircraft more than autos, boats, ect because the tolerances between the cylinder and piston, rings are greater to be able to expand and contract further distances which is needed because our engines are air cooled, which is why the use more oil and the oil gets dirtier faster.

So why does it rust faster than a auto? More combustion gases get by the larger tolerances which means more corrosion promoting acids in the oil, giving corrosion and rust a jump start.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I bought an 1968 F model out of Falcon Field in 1996 with 1900 SMOH.  I paid nothing for engine time, considering it at TBO.  I flew it to exactly 2400 SMOH before replacing with a factory OH.  I made a personal commitment to monitor 5 things in deciding to continue past TBO safely.  Oil consumption (look for any significant change),  oil samples, again looking for significant change,  check the screen oil filter at every 25 hour oil change, looking for significant metal, checked compressions every 50 hours, and finally, actually flying experience, did the sound, feel or power change in a significant amount.  I found significant metal in the screen at an oil change at 2400 hours.  I sold the plane with 850 hours SMOH, and would have had 1250 on the new engine had I changed the old one at TBO.

 

MY Rocket is now 270 hours over TBO and many have seen over 500 past with this configuration.  I am a firm believer in exercising common sense in engine OH decisions.  You will likely get a lot of hours out of that engine.  Looking at the price, it doesn't look like you ae paying a lot for the engine time either.  Just MHO.  If it means anything now, I bought the bird for $37K in 1996, sold it in 2001 for $65k.

 

Tom

[FloridaMan]

My opinion is that you should be able to find a 1967-70 M20F with a GNS430, six pack panel and a mid-time engine for around $40,000. 

 

Here's an example: http://www.lasar.com/w/id/236/new-plane-details.asp ; Newer plane, some damage history, GPS -- the price seems about what you'd expect for someone who is seriously interested in selling. I think a lot of listings out there are from people who don't want to sell their airplanes. Either their wives are putting them up to it, or it may be for tax purposes to claim that they're in the business of selling aircraft to save taxes, et cetera. 

[Cwalsh7997]

My opinion is that you should be able to find a 1967-70 M20F with a GNS430, six pack panel and a mid-time engine for around $40,000.

Here's an example: http://www.lasar.com/w/id/236/new-plane-details.asp ; Newer plane, some damage history, GPS -- the price seems about what you'd expect for someone who is seriously interested in selling. I think a lot of listings out there are from people who don't want to sell their airplanes. Either their wives are putting them up to it, or it may be for tax purposes to claim that they're in the business of selling aircraft to save taxes, et cetera.

I have been trying to find one with a 430 but can't find it.

[FloridaMan]

Be patient. I know that's tough at 17; it was tough for me at 30. I would also call MSCs -- Don Maxwell, LASAR, All American, Willmar and tell them what you're looking for. Mine never made it be listed when I found it. I don't think the owner wanted the hassle of people calling and kicking tires. 

[jetdriven]

One additional note. If a engine has flown 200 hours a year for past 3 years and there is no metal in filter (yes cut filter at pre-buy inspection) most likely you got a good engine.

The problem comes when a over haul is 5 years old and maybe flew a lot the first year but due to health, lack of interest ect the plane only flew 25 hours a year for the past 2 years. Think about a engine sitting for 8 weeks at a time without being started. All the oil runs off those shiny steel cylinders and cam shaft.

Lay a piece of shiny unprotected steel in a non-climate controlled shed for / months and it will be covered in a light rust (unless you live in the desert).

Then when the engine fires up it scrapes the rust off which takes a bit of steel with it creating pits. Well you know the deal when 2 pieces of rough metal run against each other wear is accelerated.

So then after a plane with little time in the last 2 years is bought the new owner flys the snot out of it, cause well, it's new and fun. In 18 months it needs a motor.

This can happen to even a 2 year old overhaul if it's not run often.

This happens in aircraft more than autos, boats, ect because the tolerances between the cylinder and piston, rings are greater to be able to expand and contract further distances which is needed because our engines are air cooled, which is why the use more oil and the oil gets dirtier faster.

So why does it rust faster than a auto? More combustion gases get by the larger tolerances which means more corrosion promoting acids in the oil, giving corrosion and rust a jump start.

 

Thats exactly what happened to ours. It flew 1200 or 1300 hours regularly. Then 35 hours, then 20 hours. We ran it 250 hours and it spalled 3 lifters.  we even pulled a cylinder off at prebuy and it all looked good.  Some speculate the metal the lifters or the cam is made from is inferior.

[kevinw]

Until now, I've never seen or heard of an airplane with THREE (and counting) gear up landings. Almost unbelievable.

[Shadrach]

Until now, I've never seen or heard of an airplane with THREE (and counting) gear up landings. Almost unbelievable.

Yup...from 91-95 this bird averaged a belly landing every 16 months... I hope this was not the "work" of a single individual.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I guess I wasn't endorsing this plane as much as saying an air frame with high hours since TBO is NOT necessarily a deal killer.  I have bought two planes where I specifically looked for high time so I could control the overhaul, and have the engine builder answer to me, the guy that wrote the check.  That can be better than approaching the over haul shop as a second owner with problems.

 

 When I wanted a good IFR platform (F- Model Mooney), my instructor advised to buy a high TBO air frame.  As I noted before, it turned out to be a good financial move($37K purchase, $15K Factory OH, sold for $65K)  In the other case, we (mercy flight org I fly for) wanted a Bonanza with "known Ice TKS" and a Tornado Alley turbo.  You cannot get a "known ice" TKS installed on a modified airplane, so we had to get the TKS installed BEFORE the engine over haul and turbo upgrade.  

 

I will say, my hangar partner and best friend is an A&P, and been involved with every PPI on birds I've bought (6 of them).  I would NEVER consider buying an airplane without personally inspecting it.  I do my own annuals most of the time, with his and an IA supervision.  My squawk lists are always longer then when I use the local FBO.  Just finished up the Rocket annual with at least 60-70 hours of my time in it this year, and about 6 hours from my A&P.

 

Tom

[FloridaMan]

I'm going to guess that a $15k factory overhaul was not had recently. 

[Yooper Rocketman]

I'm going to guess that a $15k factory overhaul was not had recently. 

Ah, no.  Summer of 1998.  Bought it through the company selling nice used Cessna's and factory OH engines.  Can't remember the name right now.