Landing a Ovation 3 on a 2500 feet runways

[donkaye]

A couple of points:

 

1. If you "chirp" on touchdown, you touched down too fast.  You should be able to "roll" the wheels on.

 

2. Starting the flare at 50" is way, way, way too high.  That indicates to me you are going too fast.  If you were at the correct speed and started to flare at 50" you would stall the plane by 30' above the ground.  You should always be able to see the runway ahead; even as you touch down.  Proper flare height is a height such that once you start the flare you are constantly raising the nose and bleeding off speed at such a rate that you "roll" the wheels on as the stall warning goes off and you can see at least 2 centerline stripes ahead of you if the runway has centerline striping. 

 

2. Leadville is at 9,934 feet and the runway length is 6,400 feet.  When I was last there they had cross stripes at the 25, 50, and 75 percent of runway length.  Book says the Bravo should be off the ground within 1,300 feet at gross weight at 10,000 feet standard conditions.  I took off with a DA of over 13,000 feet in the afternoon at gross weight and was off the ground in 1,500 feet.  Check your book ROC to makes sure your engine/prop combination meets book and is not "tired" before going into high DA airports.

 

3. With the AOA, approach speeds higher than about 73 knots at gross landing weight is too fast in nominal conditions.  Today at mid weight 68 knots was indicated at mid weight.  It will be slightly below 65 knots at light weight.  I haven't tried that yet with the AOA.  Without an AOA your landing speeds in the long body airplane should be between 75 at gross landing weight and 65 with one hour of fuel and one person on board. (Acclaim, Bravo, Ovations)

 

4. Yes, I have speed brakes and "pop" them every time on touch down.  They are effective on touch down and become less so as you slow down.

 

5. Fallbrook was uncomfortable at 2,100 feet.  I didn't have an AOA at that time (15 years ago).  I let the owner out to watch the slope I flew and attitude at the flare as I flew the approach.  I was a little fast and was at the edge of a skid to stop, if I remember correctly.  I don't remember whether I let him try one, but I think I did.  It would be interesting to try it with an AOA now.  The airport is on a knoll and is a little like landing on an aircraft carrier, but not as severe as Catalina or Sedona.

 

6.  I had one student who was based at Palo Alto.  It took me 30 hours with him before i would sign him off because you really need to be on speed EVERY time and he wasn't.  He leased his plane to a flying club and ended up with several prop strikes because non Mooney instructors were allowed to check people out in the airplane.  Palo Alto is much easier than most short fields because there is almost always a 10 knot headwind at the airport.

 

If I think of any other tips, I'll post them.

[AndyFromCB]

Don,

 

Yes, exactly, use pre flare when too fast. How do you deal with when 160KIAS is requested until IAP? You can either get vectored half way around Chicago or accept. No way you will slow down to cross the numbers 75 without speed brakes and in icing speed brakes are not an option.

 

I am not referring to starting a full flare at 50 feet. I am referring to pre-flaring the aircraft (basic level off before the numbers) to bleed off speed to get to normal approach speeds, then pointing to nose back down at the runway once back on speed. The idea is speed bleeds off a lot harder in ground effect. Used for both instrument approaches and very steep approaches, works very well for me. It's used very effectively in a PC12 and TBM and taught in both of these aircraft in training and I see no reason not to use it in a Mooney or any other slick airframe.

 

I am simply stating that 75knot approaches are not reasonable in a high traffic IFR environment. 

[rbp]

160 at the OM, deploy speed breaks

at 140 deploy the gear

reduce power to 17" (carefully watching CHTs, in a Bravo)

you'll be 75 over the fence

[carusoam]

Dp

[LANCECASPER]

I am interested by a Ovation 3. The airport I would park the airplane has a 2500 feet runways. Could those that own an Ovation are confortable landing an taking off on a 2500 feet runways?

'Thank You

 

Could you do it in 2500 feet? Yes all of us could do it on most days and you would hone your skills knowing that you had to fly by the numbers every time on each landing. 

 

However, I wouldn't want to be based there and have to do that every time. Extra runway length can make us sloppy if we aren't keeping up our proficiency, but I still like the extra margin it provides on those days when everything doesn't go right. Just because you can doesn't mean you should . . . 

 

I have an Ovation 2 that has the 310hp STC and as others have said take-off is not going to be a problem, however one other thing to think about is an aborted take-off. If something does feel or sound right I like to have some extra runway there so there's a possibility I could set it down, taxi back and check things out rather than making a trip around the pattern. 

 

Just my 2 cents

[Fritz Kaiser]

Hi folks,

my O1 ist based in Regensburg ( EDNR)  with a field elev. of 1298 feet.

we have a 2116 feet runway at the top of a hill.

Take off at gross weight is no problem at all  !

.. but landing    ....the key for a good landing  is the correct speed fitting to the actual landing weight.

at max landing weight i've 73 kt over the numbers  with little fuel and just me in the plane i'm down to 69 kt.

...i need all my attention fora landing at EDNR.... but it works

 

here is a pic fron the 10 :       http://www.ednr.org/flugplatz/fotos/

 

Regards

 

Fritz

[donkaye]

160 at the OM, deploy speed breaks

at 140 deploy the gear

reduce power to 17" (carefully watching CHTs, in a Bravo)

you'll be 75 over the fence

 

That's the way I do it, with the exception that my mp is 15" and I bring the prop back to 2000 RPM.  Prop returns to full forward after on slope and proper speed in preparation of a go around.

[donkaye]

Could you do it in 2500 feet? Yes all of us could do it on most days and you would hone your skills knowing that you had to fly by the numbers every time on each landing. 

 

However, I wouldn't want to be based there and have to do that every time. Extra runway length can make us sloppy if we aren't keeping up our proficiency, but I still like the extra margin it provides on those days when everything doesn't go right. Just because you can doesn't mean you should . . . 

 

I have an Ovation 2 that has the 310hp STC and as others have said take-off is not going to be a problem, however one other thing to think about is an aborted take-off. If something does feel or sound right I like to have some extra runway there so there's a possibility I could set it down, taxi back and check things out rather than making a trip around the pattern. 

 

Just my 2 cents

 

I have to disagree here.  You should be able to make 2,500 feet every time.  If you can't, then please go up with a Mooney Specific instructor and practice with him/her until you can consistantly and comfortably do it.  You should not be afraid to base at a 2,500 foot field.  There are a number of long body Mooneys based in Palo Alto.  There have been times when I have had students go around because I felt uncomfortable with their approach for either poor airspeed control or incorrect slope issues.  Never be embarrassed to go around.  That's the reason I put the unexpected go around in my Landing Video.

 

Another tip for short field takeoffs: On take off from a short field I recommend always doing a static takeoff, i.e, hold the brakes, apply full power, wait a few seconds for full power to develop, and then release the brakes and go.  If you have an engine problem, that is the safest way with the least amount of risk to check it out.

[AndyFromCB]

160 at the OM, deploy speed breaks

at 140 deploy the gear

reduce power to 17" (carefully watching CHTs, in a Bravo)

you'll be 75 over the fence

 

How do you deploy speed brakes in icing? And 15" or 17" in the soup? That's how the fellow in the TBM in CO met his maker. Stall in IFR conditions. Sorry, I'll pass. I'll keep on coming down the slope at 20" and bleed off my speed once outside IMC. Long runways exist for a reason.

[aviatoreb]

I have to disagree here.  You should be able to make 2,500 feet every time.  If you can't, then please go up with a Mooney Specific instructor and practice with him/her until you can consistantly and comfortably do it.  You should not be afraid to base at a 2,500 foot field.  There are a number of long body Mooneys based in Palo Alto.  There have been times when I have had students go around because I felt uncomfortable with their approach for either poor airspeed control or incorrect slope issues.  Never be embarrassed to go around.  That's the reason I put the unexpected go around in my Landing Video.

 

Another tip for short field takeoffs: On take off from a short field I recommend always doing a static takeoff, i.e, hold the brakes, apply full power, wait a few seconds for full power to develop, and then release the brakes and go.  If you have an engine problem, that is the safest way with the least amount of risk to check it out.

 

I agree with you completely Don.

 

I do want to take the opportunity here to share a mistake I made about 3 years ago that this whole discussion keeps making me remember - nothing bad happened since I am fortunate that my homefield is 3700 ft and otherwise I could have gone around and probably should have anyway.  I almost always have no problem stopping in half my runway length - although I keep rolling since I need to get to about 2/3rd runway length to get to the turn off, and anyway this lets me the luxury of using almost zero brakes, just aerodynamic braking.  One day about 3 years ago, with my wife on board, of course, yes I was on speed as usual.  But for some reason it took me half a runway to diagnose, I floated at least half the runway.  Then it hit me what happened - the friction lock on the manifold pressure was not tight.  I had pulled back the MP maybe at 50ft agl, and some how in turbulence or what not, it immediately slipped forward a few inches.  So I was flaring and trying to land with a few extra inches of MP.  Well, that doesn't help for a short landing.  If it had been a shorter field I could have gone around if I was floating so long (and also worry was my gear really down).  Then it hit me the sound - so I pulled back further and landed.  Well, I should have gone around since I ended up stopping maybe 200 ft from the end with heavy but not locking up braking.  That was closer than comfortable.  And a lousy landing on a much more than adequate field.  So after several years of no problem there you go, I made a big mistake.  As I said I could have easily gone around if it had been a short field but from that day I can see more sympathetically how run off mistakes happen.  Since that day, it changed my operation, a proper check that my MP is really out as I flare has become part of the many little things I do during landing.  It is nothing you would even know I do since it involves not just my hand on the black knob as before, but a slight one more time extra tug on it.

 

I shared that not to say I am a bad pilot or to invite anyone here to criticize it, but just as my own affirmation that good piloting involves a correction process - if a mistake happens then make it a point to admit it, share it, and correct for it moving forward.

[donkaye]

How do you deploy speed brakes in icing? And 15" or 17" in the soup? That's how the fellow in the TBM in CO met his maker. Stall in IFR conditions. Sorry, I'll pass. I'll keep on coming down the slope at 20" and bleed off my speed once outside IMC. Long runways exist for a reason.

 

Unless you have TKS you have no business being in icing conditions and even with it there are limits.  If you have TKS, then you need a long runway because I agree speed brakes can't be deployed in icing conditions.  In any event 20" MP is too high inside either the FAF or GS intercept point. Use the prop as a speed brake and bring it back to 2,000 rpm or less.   OTOH mp should be no less than 15".  You want the engine to run the prop, not the other way around.  Don't forget to push the prop control forward after on speed and slope in preparation for a possible go around.

 

We're not flying TBMs or PC12s.  The usual mp on a normal instrument approach for 105 knots (just below maximum flap speed) in the long body Mooneys is between 15 and 17 inches.  Stall? At those MPs and approach speeds you are far from stall.  Most approaches are not done in Class B and C airspace so shouldn't be rushed in my opinion.  If you are operating in the higher class airspaces then once again go out with an experienced Mooney instructor and let them show you how to do them comfortably fast.

 

If another method works best for you, then by all means use it.  My comments are just based on flying all models of Mooneys for the past 22 years with the experience shown on my web page here:

 

Aircraft Flight Instruction

[PMcClure]

I can make 2500' almost every time with my ovation 2. Depending on my sharpness, wind conditions, etc... some days may be easier than other days. And there have been a couple of times that I just screwed up, including leaving in a little power and it took 4000' when I had 6000 total.

 

But - I would check with your insurance guys before you make the decision. They may charge higher or pass on coverage if you are based at 2500' field depending on your experience, etc.... I set my personal minimum at a 3000' field. I still practice short landings but enjoy the margins and lower insurance costs and haven't found a reason to try anything shorter. 

 

As for speed brakes on final, I also have not found a need to use them on approach unless I planned poorly or ATC gets me screwed up. 15" at the initial fix, 500 fpm decent gives me 140 knots, gear down 1 minute before the FF, then flaps and 13" gives 500fpm at 90 knots all the way down.

 

I doubt a 2500' RR will have an precision approach anyway.  So that could be another consideration on having a Mooney on a short field. You buy an Ovation to go somewhere; with a 2500' field, most IFR days may be NOGO's. 

 

As for take off, 2500' is very adequate. But I would add that there have been a couple of aborted takeoffs in my past. Just because you can be off the ground in 1000' doesn't mean you will never need the remaining 1500'. 

 

We all have different comfort levels with risk. 2500' is well within the standard numbers. Just make sure you make a fully informed decision and understand the risks you take. 

[gsxrpilot]

This is where I learned to fly, got my IA, and was checked out in my Mooney. Granted, it's only a C so I should probably stay out of this discussion:-)

5TX0 - 2600ft all down hill 16 to 34 which is the prevailing wind.

There are quite a few big/fast birds based here as well.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DonMuncy]

Your Hidden Valley picture shows a couple of my houses, a couple of hundred yards west of the water tower in the upper right.

[gsxrpilot]

I'd love to have a house at Hidden Valley. Unfortunately work and the wife have me in Austin.

[DonMuncy]

Unfortunately, mine are not in Hidden Valley. I am a half mile away. although I have driven to/in/through it many times, I have never landed there. That down hill runway (when landing south), and 2600 feet would be a bit of a challenge for me.

[ChristianGodin]

I love this site. I don't know if there is any other site that would give my as much of this rich experience to take as good a decision. I have 300 hours of experience on a 201 out of a 3900 runways and I never use more than half of the runway which is still 1950 feet. I realise that I am a sloppy pilot! I will buy that video. And it does happen rarely, for whatever reason, that I have been flotting and end up using more feet!

Lately, with the influence of others, I have been attracted to Cirrus. I keep coming back to the controler web site - Mooney section - because, deeply in my hart, I stick to Mooney. This rich site is one of the reason.

Thank you all.

[M016576]

Unless you have TKS you have no business being in icing conditions and even with it there are limits. If you have TKS, then you need a long runway because I agree speed brakes can't be deployed in icing conditions. In any event 20" MP is too high inside either the FAF or GS intercept point. Use the prop as a speed brake and bring it back to 2,000 rpm or less. OTOH mp should be no less than 15". You want the engine to run the prop, not the other way around. Don't forget to push the prop control forward after on speed and slope in preparation for a possible go around.

We're not flying TBMs or PC12s. The usual mp on a normal instrument approach for 105 knots (just below maximum flap speed) in the long body Mooneys is between 15 and 17 inches. Stall? You're just slightly behind the power curve at those MPs and approach speeds and far from stall. Most approaches are not done in Class B and C airspace so shouldn't be rushed in my opinion. If you are operating in the higher class airspaces then once again go out with an experienced Mooney instructor and let them show you how to do them comfortably fast.

If another method works best for you, then by all means use it. My comments are just based on flying all models of Mooneys for the past 22 years with the experience shown on my web page here:

Aircraft Flight Instruction

Don- I was under the impression that so long as you had some throttle in (say 12-13" mp) and you were below 100kts, that you were in no danger of the prop driving the engine. Is that true in your experience, or an OWT? I heard that the place to be careful was long descents at high airspeeds with low power (above 100kts, below 15").

Admittedly, my missile will not stay on-speed at 15" on a 3 degree glideslope unless I get to behind the power curve first (configure, add power back up after sink rate develops). I like your 2000 rpm technique for slowing down at near GS intercept- I'm going to try it out.

Either way, Just as a data point-

M20J missile (conti-6. Cyl), similar to long body power plant. Hartzell top prop (3 blade blended)

My home station is at 4100' msl and so long as their is no tail wind, I land inside of 2000' every time.

For the idea of a minimum of 5000' for ifr flight- A 5000' runway is very comfortable and forgiving in a mooney, but I see no reason to limit ones self to only shooting IFR approaches to runways 5000 or longer. That minimum certainly does make sense for the turbine equipment I fly, though... But the approach speed on those jets are typically around 150 kts. It is smart to adjust runway to meet personal skill and runway conditions, though, and not all IFR approaches are created equal. But if you break out at 500-1000', that's a lot of time to set yourself up for a nice landing in VMC conditions. Remember- you are not under a contract to fly the perfect centered needle glideslope all the way to touchdown- but you are expected to make a safe landing once the field is in sight. If you are "@holes and elbows" trying to make that happen, then you're probably not as proficient for the conditions as you'd like to be. 3000' at sea level should be more than enough room for a proficient pilot of most certificates makes and models out there. ice on the runway could bump that out a bit though.

Another thought- does the FIKI TKS install recommend no flap landings in icing conditions? I thought that due to the fluid's runback capability that flaps were still a go? I don't fly a bravo, so I don't know.

All IMHO.

[donkaye]

Certainly when in the pattern on the downwind to base turn the power is reduced to between 12" and 15" depending on the model and wind conditions.  In cruise descent, I thought the Mooney PPP stated no less than 15" but it doesn't say that, so I heard it from another knowledgeable person.  My recommendation in a cruise descent is that no less than 15" be used, and gear down (not the landing gear) just like you do going down a steep slope in a car by reducing the prop RPM to the lowest level permitted by the POH.  The Bravo has no lower limit, so I gradually reduce it to 2000 RPM in a manner such that any passenger does not become alarmed at hearing a change.  However, WHEN I do that depends on the rate of descent required.  For the most part at a normal comfortable 500 ft/min descent I just put the nose down about 3 degrees and increase speed to make up for the loss of time in the initial climb.

 

The POH supplement for TKS says no more than takeoff flaps are to be used in icing conditions.

[rbp]

"The usual mp on a normal instrument approach for 105 knots (just below maximum flap speed) in the long body Mooneys is between 15 and 17 inches. Stall? You're just slightly behind the power curve at those MPs and approach speeds and far from stall."

 

you can't be behind the power curve unless you're below Vmaxglide, which in the Bravo at max gross is 93.5kias

[rbp]

you don't want to use full flaps in icing conditions for 2 reasons:

 

1. mooney-style flaps cause a large nose-down pitch change, and if the tail has ice on it, it could cause a tail stall (remember the tail flies upside down)

 

2. if you have to go around or missed and the flaps freeze, you won't be able to retract them

[donkaye]

"The usual mp on a normal instrument approach for 105 knots (just below maximum flap speed) in the long body Mooneys is between 15 and 17 inches. Stall? You're just slightly behind the power curve at those MPs and approach speeds and far from stall."

 

you can't be behind the power curve unless you're below Vmaxglide, which in the Bravo at max gross is 93.5kias

 

I agree.  I was thinking about the normal approach speed, which, unless you have a strong crosswind in excess of 25 knots, will be below 75 knots.  

 

I edited the original post to prevent confusion.

[M016576]

Thanks Don! I'm going to try the 2000 RPM technique. In my old J, I had no problems staying at/above 15"mp. In the missile, though, I'll fly all day long at 15"! Love these slick mooneys!

[aaronk25]

It's amazing how good you can get at short field landings of your willing to work at it. Don has some good advice above,

[donkaye]

It's amazing how good you can get at short field landings of your willing to work at it. Don has some good advice above,

 

Flew into Stockton today to leave the airplane for some work.  Took along another student who flys a Falcon Jet for his day job and has a Rocket that I would use to work with him on short field landings.  I don't like to waste tire tread taxiing so I got down to about a foot off the 4400 foot runway and flew at somewhere close to 50 knots (just above stall but didn't look at the exact speed due to paying attention to what I was doing) to very close to runway end which is closest to Top Gun.  I used about 100 RPM above idle.  My right seater kept saying, "Aren't you going to land".  I said, "Not yet."  As we approached the last turn off, I rolled off the power, immediately touched down, and had to taxi up to the turn off.  He was surprised, I wasn't.  Induced drag is reduced by about 50% at a height of 10% of the wing span.  Actual ground roll was a couple of hundred feet in the Bravo.  I acknowledge this isn't the same as an approach to a landing where you are mostly out of ground effect, but if you know your airplane you can make very short field landings.