Made in China Acclaim

[flyboy0681]

This thread is trending in the wrong direction.

MS is about supporting our machines and our pilots no matter where they are or where they are from.

Bashing another person's politics, country, or beliefs can be done in so many other web sites. Feel free to take it there.

 

 

 

This very subject was mentioned in this months issue of Mooney Flyer.

[scottfromiowa]

Please.... And thank you.

For a really good political discussion, may I recommend the Timmy thread...?

This thread is trending in the wrong direction.

MS is about supporting our machines and our pilots no matter where they are or where they are from.

Bashing another person's politics, country, or beliefs can be done in so many other web sites. Feel free to take it there.

Best regards,

-a-

This thread has not been about Mooney aircraft, pilots and the future of flying them? We agree to disagree. Where were you when I was being personally attacked? Crickets.

I find you lacking...

[flyboy0681]

. Where were you when I was being personally attacked? Crickets.

 

Walk a mile in my shoes to know what personal attacks are.

[scottfromiowa]

Hey I just told you how smart you are. Nice discussion on China. Kudo's.

[Hank]

Great discussion, Timmy. I've missed the last couple of pages here. Now get back in your box!

I am guessing that the new M10s will be built in China. The current process appears to be build M20s here, ship them to China and reassemble for sale. That works for me.

Where is design work done? At the moment, it seems to be Kerrville and SoCal.

Will any of this change in the future? Who knows, certainly nobody here with the possible exception of Stacy Ellis.

I'm all for a reinvigorated Mooney! Make a lot, sell a lot, fly a lot.

[DaV8or]

I love Mooneys , I love flying them , would I pay similar money for a new Mooney verses a New Bonanza or Cirrus or C206 or Piper Matrix...... NO FUCKIN WAY .....When you can put 4 adults , and four hours fuel in a new Mooney ,than maybe that will change.......Im sure this post will be very unpopular here , but it is what it is...... 

 

What it is-

 

Piper Matrix -                          1355 Useful load

Cirrus SR-22 -                        1340 Useful load

Cessna 206 Stationair -          1281 Useful load

Mooney Ovation 3 -                1107 Useful load

Beechcraft Bonanza G36 -     1033 Useful load

 

Mooney does come up short. Not as bad as the sacred cow of aviation, the Bonanza, but still it comes up short if hauling 4 people is your mission.

 

Now compare max cruise speed-

 

Piper Matrix -                          213 KTAS

Mooney Ovation 3 -                197 KTAS

Cirrus SR-22 -                         183 KTAS

Beechcraft Bonanza G36-      176 KTAS

Cessna 206 Stationair -          164 KTAS

 

That Matrix is looking real good about now. Hauls a lot and goes fast!

 

Now compare price-

 

Cirrus SR-22 -                         $499,900

Cessna 206 Stationair -          $530,000

Mooney Ovation 3 -                $649,000

Beechcraft Bonanza G36 -     $759,000 (2013 price. Best I could find, 2015 price likely more.)

Piper Matrix-                           $939,950

 

Wow! Throw in a parachute and now you know why most choose a Cirrus. It's a heck of a deal.

[carusoam]

Scott,

I had the choice to write a compliment for your writing skills which seemed to be really improved lately or a request to take the Chinese bashing elsewhere.

I went with the request to take the bashing elsewhere...

We lose good visitors more each time the bashing goes on. The bashing doesn't go away in time. The threads stay like it was just typed.

Speed, efficiency, and safety at an affordable cost is worth sharing with all walks of life. Even if we have to tone down the way we type things. Or where we type it.

Back in the day is was accepted to use crude and lewd phrases to help keep people out of the old boys network.

That didn't work. It wasn't appreciated then. It still isn't appreciated today.

We have too much to lose and not enough to gain...

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

You collective lovers...LOVE to complain.

 

Seriously Scott, you are the biggest complainer on this board. You even started your own epic thread just to complain.

[scottfromiowa]

Seriously Scott, you are the biggest complainer on this board. You even started your own epic thread just to complain.

I just complain about the complainers...and the Federal Government. They don't "Collectively" like that. Perhaps you should read my vs. others comments on this thread.

I agree, it IS epic. Your words, not mine.

[Tommy]

I wasn't intended to have this topic as a political discussion and I apologise if my comments had offended people.

 

I was simply making a prediction that Mooney International will move the entire oepration - including manufacturing and possibly even the research and development of future Mooneys - to China. This prediction is based on evidence and observation. When Chinese brought out a struggling company - for eg. Volvo - the first thing they do is to move the manufacturing oepration to China for cost issue (not to mention all the IPs that go along). I just hope that the good people of Kerville will not suffer from this. It just seems funny that some will take this opportunity to bash political party or government policies that they don't like.

 

Thirdly, FAA is very unlikely to certify these Chinese made Mooneys in the future. That means no one else except Chinese can buy new Mooneys (The fact that YOU are not going to pay $700k for a Mooney when you can get a Cirrus for $500k is irrelevant because it is only YOUR opinion and using "F" words only further diminish the strength of your argument). I am not stating my opinion, I am simply making a credible prediction (and to be honest, I share the same opinion as you and that's why I was also surprised and baffled by the fairly uncompetitive price point of new Acclaims but I just wasn't expected to see Mooney Internation to take it as far as coming up a M10). The consequence of which is that someone who truly loves Mooney and wants a new unit will miss out.  

 

Last, and this is probably most important for many of us, is about the support of vintaged Mooneys. When the manufacturing is off to China (along with the lost of experience and knowledge of Kerrville crew) plus the minimal or no units sold in US / Europe / Australasia plus the "beuracractic red tapes" that Mooney International has to jump in order to supply parts and services. So far all we heard was the brand new M10s and the manufacturing operation in China. There seems to have a distinctive lack of interest on the support issues and, for one, is there any Mooney International Rep on this forum?

[John Pleisse]

China is bad for Mooney. It's that plain and simple. The company is better off in receivership awaiting more favorable times here at home. China has a proven history of poor ethical behavior and manufacturing malfeasance. This has no place in aviation. I'll say it again, the day the jigs leave Texas, it's game over. 

[scottfromiowa]

I wasn't intended to have this topic as a political discussion and I apologise if my comments had offended people. NOT ACCEPTED. YOUR COMMENTS TO ME WERE OUT OF LINE. THIS IS A POLITICAL TOPIC FOR ALL THE REASONS DISCUSSED. A BLANKET APOLOGY DOESN'T CUT IT.

I was simply making a prediction that Mooney International will move the entire oepration - including manufacturing and possibly even the research and development of future Mooneys - to China. This prediction is based on evidence and observation. When Chinese brought out a struggling company - for eg. Volvo - the first thing they do is to move the manufacturing oepration to China for cost issue (not to mention all the IPs that go along). I just hope that the good people of Kerville will not suffer from this. It just seems funny that some will take this opportunity to bash political party or government policies that they don't like. I DO NOT NECESSARILY DISAGREE WITH YOU, BUT MOONEY SOLD. WHO IS TO BLAME IF THE COMPANY IS MOVED? LITIGANTS? TRIAL LAWYERS? INSURANCE COMPANIES, THE US GOVERNMENT? MAYBE. THE CHINESE? NOPE. WHAT YOU ASKED WAS "IS THERE A SILVER LINING"? MOONEY'S ARE BEING BUILT. INFRASTRUCTURE IN TEXAS HAS BEEN BEEFED UP. NEW TRAINER AND CARBON 201 WITH DIESEL POWER ARE BEYOND DRAWING BOARD. ENGINES NOT MOVED TO CHINA...SO THERE IS AVIATION EXAMPLE TO COUNTER THE VOLVO EXAMPLE. FUNNY HA HA OR FUNNY STRANGE? THE PLIGHT OF GA AND MOONEY ARE POLITICAL TO MANY. A MICROCOSM OF THE DISSATISFACTION MANY IN US FEEL TOWARD FAA. I PERSONALLY WISH MOONEY/CHINA SUCCESS. NO U.S. INTEREST. IN METAL MOONEY'S...MAYBE THERE IS A MARKET IN CHINA?

Thirdly, FAA is very unlikely to certify these Chinese made Mooneys in the future. That means no one else except Chinese can buy new Mooneys (The fact that YOU are not going to pay $700k for a Mooney when you can get a Cirrus for $500k is irrelevant because it is only YOUR opinion and using "F" words only further diminish the strength of your argument). I am not stating my opinion, I am simply making a credible prediction (and to be honest, I share the same opinion as you and that's why I was also surprised and baffled by the fairly uncompetitive price point of new Acclaims but I just wasn't expected to see Mooney Internation to take it as far as coming up a M10). The consequence of which is that someone who truly loves Mooney and wants a new unit will miss out. THEN THAT IS GOOD FOR BEECH, PIPER, CESSNA AND CIRRUS. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN OPINION AND A PREDICTION? "SOMEONE WHO TRULY LOVES MOONEY AND WANTS A NEW UNIT"...WAS GOING TO MISS OUT ANYWAY IF THEY ARE CLOSED.

Last, and this is probably most important for many of us, is about the support of vintaged Mooneys. When the manufacturing is off to China (along with the lost of experience and knowledge of Kerrville crew) plus the minimal or no units sold in US / Europe / Australasia plus the "beuracractic red tapes" that Mooney International has to jump in order to supply parts and services. So far all we heard was the brand new M10s and the manufacturing operation in China. There seems to have a distinctive lack of interest on the support issues and, for one, is there any Mooney International Rep on this forum?

MOONEY DOESN'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT SUPPORTING VINTAGE MOONEY'S. THEY HAVEN'T FOR A LONG, LONG TIME. IF THEY DID THEY WOUDN'T OF SNUBBED A VINTAGE OWNER REGARDING CALLING A PLANE UNAIRWORTHY BASED ON PHOTOS AS SUBMITTED TO THEM BY FAA. I DON'T NEED MOONEY. THEY DON'T NEED ME. I AM GOOD WITH THAT. GLAD THEY SHOWED ME WHERE THEIR SUPPORT LIES. THERE ARE PLENTY OF PARTS AND SUPPORT TO BE HAD IN THE US FOR VINTAGE MOONEY AIRFRAMES.

[Sabremech]

For me it's quite simple, I'll never spend more than 60k on an airplane. What I have now is a stretch to fly when I want to. I'll never be able to afford a new Mooney, so I quite frankly, don't care where they're made. How many on MS can afford a new Mooney?

[N9453V]

Per Don Maxwell on the Mooney Ambassadors Facebook page, "All built in Kerrville, flown, disassembled and shipped to China a crew was sent over to assemble it."

Mooney has spent millions on the facility in Kerrville and have stated that at this point M20 manufacturing will remain at ERV and M10 manufacturing will be at CNO.

-Andrew

[Alan Fox]

Even worse is the Cirrus Turbo is also 213 knots at 725 K .....

[DaV8or]

For me it's quite simple, I'll never spend more than 60k on an airplane. What I have now is a stretch to fly when I want to. I'll never be able to afford a new Mooney, so I quite frankly, don't care where they're made. How many on MS can afford a new Mooney?

 

Not many. I'm in your camp. I could stretch and afford more, but why in the hell would I do that!!?? I can only find the time to fly about 40-50 hours a year. I bore holes in the sky and watch the world go by. I go for $200 hamburgers. I sometimes go to a fly in. (I hope t do way more in 2015!!) I never leave the state of California. AND I LOVE IT!

 

I wish I were like many of you and traveling all the way across the country, but my wife is a no go, so spending what it would cost to go to a Caribbean resort for a couple of weeks just on me seems wrong. That and money has been a little tight since 2012 for me. I hope to change that soon.

 

OMG!! I so digress! Sorry for the off topic... anyhow, I am likely a used aircraft owner forever and even amongst the used planes, I will likely be hereafter a bottom feeder. New Mooneys could be made in Somalia and it wouldn't matter to me. I can't afford them either way it ends up.

 

Having said that, I guess I'm a bit of a "collectivist" in that I care about America, it's economic health and the economic health of all it's citizens. I believe these two things are interconnected. IMO, when all Americans do well, America the country does well. This means I would like to see production and management of Mooney stay here, rather than in China. And why not?

 

Think about it. People have no problem spending well over $100,000 for a German made Mercedes. They will pay over $10,000 for a Swiss made Rolex watch. They will pay $400,000 for an Italian made Ferrari. They will pay over $100,000,000 for a yacht made in Norway. China can make all these this at about 50-90% off. Why doesn't Mercedes, Rolex, Ferrari and the yacht builders just move over there and pocket even more cash?? Why is it so wrong to think it is OK to have people buy luxury items that are made in the USA??

 

Is maximum profit the only thing that matters? Obviously to me it is not. I have personally paid for employee's pensions, health benefits, vacation pay and sick days as well as Christmas bonuses. None of this is required in my industry. I just think it is the right thing to do. IMO, putting money back into circulation through employees is far more important than "investment". Maybe if I didn't feel this way, I could get a better Mooney. Who knows, maybe even a new Mooney? You know what though? I'm OK with my ol' bucket o' bolts.

[DaV8or]

Per Don Maxwell on the Mooney Ambassadors Facebook page, "All built in Kerrville, flown, disassembled and shipped to China a crew was sent over to assemble it."

Mooney has spent millions on the facility in Kerrville and have stated that at this point M20 manufacturing will remain at ERV and M10 manufacturing will be at CNO.

-Andrew

 

I believe this... for now. I don't expect it to be forever. When that crew was sent over to put the planes back together, I am 110% sure that part of their job was to show Chinese workers how to do that. I bet the next batch of Mooneys to go there won't be accompanied by an assembly crew.

 

Just how it goes...

[jrwilson]

Per Don Maxwell on the Mooney Ambassadors Facebook page, "All built in Kerrville, flown, disassembled and shipped to China a crew was sent over to assemble it."

Mooney has spent millions on the facility in Kerrville and have stated that at this point M20 manufacturing will remain at ERV and M10 manufacturing will be at CNO.

-Andrew

So good info from a reliable/verifiable source...but no one is going to pay any attention to it and keep railing about Chinese manufacturing. It's almost like people would rather bitch than actually figure anything out.

Sad...

[scottfromiowa]

Not many. I'm in your camp. I could stretch and afford more, but why in the hell would I do that!!?? I can only find the time to fly about 40-50 hours a year. I bore holes in the sky and watch the world go by. I go for $200 hamburgers. I sometimes go to a fly in. (I hope t do way more in 2015!!) I never leave the state of California. AND I LOVE IT!

 

I wish I were like many of you and traveling all the way across the country, but my wife is a no go, so spending what it would cost to go to a Caribbean resort for a couple of weeks just on me seems wrong. That and money has been a little tight since 2012 for me. I hope to change that soon.

 

OMG!! I so digress! Sorry for the off topic... anyhow, I am likely a used aircraft owner forever and even amongst the used planes, I will likely be hereafter a bottom feeder. New Mooneys could be made in Somalia and it wouldn't matter to me. I can't afford them either way it ends up. I LIKE YOUR PLANE AND YOUR UPGRADES. I AM VERY HAPPY WITH MY VINTAGE E TOO.

 

Having said that, I guess I'm a bit of a "collectivist" in that I care about America, it's economic health and the economic health of all it's citizens. I believe these two things are interconnected. IMO, when all Americans do well, America the country does well. This means I would like to see production and management of Mooney stay here, rather than in China. And why not? THAT IS NOT MY DEFINITION OF COLLECTIVIST DAVE. I CARE VERY MUCH ABOUT AMERICA TO INCLUDE THE ECONOMY AND WELL BEING FOR ALL. I 100% AGREE THAT WHEN ALL ABLE BODIED WILLING TO WORK AND WORKING AMERICANS ARE DOING WELL IT IS GOOD FOR ALL INCLUDING THOSE THAT CAN'T WORK. I AGREE 100% THAT THE UNITED STATES BENEFITS MORE FROM MOONEY'S BEING BUILT AND SOLD IN THE USA. WHY NOT? BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE WITH MEANS WERE BUYING THEIR PLANES AND THE COMPANY DECIDED TO SELL TO A CHINESE COMPANY.

 

Think about it. People have no problem spending well over $100,000 for a German made Mercedes. They will pay over $10,000 for a Swiss made Rolex watch. They will pay $400,000 for an Italian made Ferrari. They will pay over $100,000,000 for a yacht made in Norway. China can make all these this at about 50-90% off. Why doesn't Mercedes, Rolex, Ferrari and the yacht builders just move over there and pocket even more cash?? BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO. THEY ARE PROFITABLE AND DOING JUST FINE Why is it so wrong to think it is OK to have people buy luxury items that are made in the USA?? IT'S NOT IN MY OPINION. BMW&MERCEDES DO MAKE SOME CARS IN THE US.

 

Is maximum profit the only thing that matters? NOT TO ME. Obviously to me it is not. I have personally paid for employee's pensions, health benefits, vacation pay and sick days as well as Christmas bonuses. None of this is required in my industry. I just think it is the right thing to do. IMO, putting money back into circulation through employees is far more important than "investment". Maybe if I didn't feel this way, I could get a better Mooney. Who knows, maybe even a new Mooney? MAYBE. You know what though? I'm OK with my ol' bucket o' bolts.

ME TOO.

[Releew]

Although new to this site I've been flying since 83 and have always been a big fan of Mooney aircraft. I liked the plane so much I purchased my J model when the plant was closed! (like so may others have done)

 

I've read several comments about what's predicted to take place when the Chinese become competent in either manufacturing and or reassembly of US built assemblies.  I go back to the question written in my previous response.....

 

What made Mooney's business model so unattractive that no US based business showed any interest in the purchase and reopening of the facility?

 

Besides typical GA in general being a bad investment.....  What was Mooney's biggest problems......

 

Top end management heavy?

Poor work pool?

Liability issues?

Priced out of their closest market?

Too good a product for the price?

 

I'm really curious to know what went so wrong and your opinions to why........  In the end, it's a great product so something had to go very wrong... more than once!

 

Rick

[ryoder]

Made by Communists. I don't want one.

[fantom]

 

I'm really curious to know what went so wrong and your opinions to why........  In the end, it's a great product so something had to go very wrong... more than once!

 

Rick

 

Mostly greedy, carpet bagger, ownership that understood neither the product nor the market, IMO.

[Tommy]

Take a look at two documentaries:

 

1) "How the west was lost" by Dambisa Moyo

 

and

 

2) "Dreamliner - Broken Dream" by  Al Jazeera

 

perhaps they might shed some light?

[gsxrpilot]

On the topic of why Mooney wasn't successful here in the US...?  I'm just asking...

 

It seems to me that the market doesn't exist or isn't big enough to support an airplane manufacture.  There are about 500,000 pilots in the US and a very small fraction of that outside the US.  Of that total number, the majority fly for the airlines or the military and don't fly GA at all.  Of the fraction of pilots that are active GA pilots, how many are owners vs. renters? If we get down to the owners, how many can afford a $700K new Mooney?  And finally, of the group who have the disposable income to allow them to buy a new Mooney, how many could just as easily afford a TBM, Pilatus, or a biz jet of some sort?

 

It just seems to me the market is too small.  It's like selling Ferrari's except that likely every person on earth who could afford one, has a license to drive and is allowed to drive by the jurisdiction where they live.  

 

All the other manufacturers build a wide range of airplanes, from trainers, to pickup trucks, to busses. And then there's Cirrus.

 

I don't see investing my capitol in a company like Mooney, I just don't think the market is there.  Having said that, I'm a huge fan of Mooney and wish them all the best.  I love my M20C! Someday, I might even aspire to fly an E!

[DaV8or]

What made Mooney's business model so unattractive that no US based business showed any interest in the purchase and reopening of the facility?

 

Mooney has been dogged from day one by two things- Expensive, labor intensive design and construction and limited appeal. The cost of Mooneys has always been above their competitors because they are complicated and tedious to build. The very things that make a Mooney a Mooney are the culprits. The massively strong wing spar, the steel cage, the mechanical landing gear system, the trimming tail, these all add cost that the other guys don't have. A big redesign to simplify, or get rid of these things means back to the FAA for certification and flight trials. Not cheap either.

 

Mooneys have limited market appeal. Their cabins are smaller over all and there is no 6 seat option. I don't care what any Mooniac says, getting into, or out of a Mooney is awkward. Initially to the prospective buyer of the Mooney, it does feel cramped and claustrophobic, even if there is plenty of room. Then there is the limited useful load in the long bodies. Mooneys are fast and efficient, but the market has shown that that is a secondary concern to most buyers of new airplanes.

 

Mooney was not a good investment, nor has it ever been. That's why every owner in the past has gotten out. I'm not sure the Chinese have made a wise investment either, but hey, they clearly have a pile of cash burning a whole in their pockets! Why not??! However, for their goals of setting up pilot training and expanding GA in China, I would have made a play for Piper if it were me.